France rejects "war on terror"

#1
#2
GREEN DAY

"Holiday"

Say, hey!

Hear the sound of the falling rain
Coming down like an Armageddon flame (Hey!)
The shame
The ones who died without a name

Hear the dogs howling out of key
To a hymn called "Faith and Misery" (Hey!)
And bleed, the company lost the war today

I beg to dream and differ from the hollow lies
This is the dawning of the rest of our lives
On holiday

Hear the drum pounding out of time
Another protester has crossed the line (Hey!)
To find, the money's on the other side

Can I get another Amen? (Amen!)
There's a flag wrapped around a score of men (Hey!)
A gag, a plastic bag on a monument

I beg to dream and differ from the hollow lies
This is the dawning of the rest of our lives
On holiday

(Hey!)
(Say, hey!)

"The representative from California has the floor"

Sieg Heil to the president Gasman
Bombs away is your punishment
Pulverize the Eiffel towers
Who criticize your government
Bang bang goes the broken glass and
Kill all the fags that don't agree
Trials by fire, setting fire
Is not a way that's meant for me
Just cause, just cause, because we're outlaws yeah!


I beg to dream and differ from the hollow lies
This is the dawning of the rest of our lives
I beg to dream and differ from the hollow lies
This is the dawning of the rest of our lives

This is our lives on holiday
 
#4
Trip_Wire said:
I see the "maginot line" mentality written all over that comment made by France.


http://today.reuters.com/news/artic...RUKOC_0_US-SECURITY-FRANCE.xml&src=rss&rpc=22
I'm personally not the greatest fan of the French, however regardless of their political posturing/posing, the French have a wealth of experience when it comes to counter terrorism/counter insurgency. They also seemingly have no qualms about sinking you/shooting you if you're New Zealand or Clichy sous Bois.

They are probably also a potential 'wild card' in Europe (IMHO) with their independent nuclear weapons capability.

While the US, and to a lesser extent Israel are hand wringing about Iran, I'd not at all be surprised if the French nuked Iran back to the stone age, and on being called to the UN to account for themselves would probably give that very gaelic shrug and say "and what are you going to do about it?"
 
#5
The french may have got the balance right

The reason why they reject it? it gets in the way of a good lunch, bottle of wine, siesta avec mistress, etc etc

Best reason to move to france:
I have tried to imagine this in Britain but I simply cannot. For, if anything, our culture is becoming more work-oriented. It is all about working more hours at a greater pace. Remember all that stuff about the leisure revolution? No one talks about that any more, probably because they are too busy making that hamster wheel go even faster (or perhaps trying to figure out how not to work until 68 ). A new survey from the bank UBS shows that Parisians worked the fewest hours in Europe (1,480 hours a year with 27 days’ holiday). This is 302 hours fewer than Londoners who, at 1,782 hours and 20 days’ holiday, are second only to the gnomes of Zurich in being swots.

Three hundred and two hours! If we divide that by seven (which is pretty much a working day in France) that is 43 working days. Forty three days! That’s a serious amount of time off (or on) and this kind of attitude percolates down to real life in other ways. There is no question that Paris is a more relaxed city than London. Indeed, London may be the most stressful city in the world these days. In a city such as New York, everyone is in a hurry but is good-natured about it. In London everyone is in a hurry and in a flurry about being in a hurry: it is becoming more expensive, crowded and frightening, and the last of these is not just because of the lurking-terror situation.
 
#6
Random_Task said:
Trip_Wire said:
I see the "maginot line" mentality written all over that comment made by France.


http://today.reuters.com/news/artic...RUKOC_0_US-SECURITY-FRANCE.xml&src=rss&rpc=22
I'm personally not the greatest fan of the French, however regardless of their political posturing/posing, the French have a wealth of experience when it comes to counter terrorism/counter insurgency. They also seemingly have no qualms about sinking you/shooting you if you're New Zealand or Clichy sous Bois.

They are probably also a potential 'wild card' in Europe (IMHO) with their independent nuclear weapons capability.

While the US, and to a lesser extent Israel are hand wringing about Iran, I'd not at all be surprised if the French nuked Iran back to the stone age, and on being called to the UN to account for themselves would probably give that very gaelic shrug and say "and what are you going to do about it?"
"French have a wealth of experience when it comes to counter terrorism/counter insurgency."

Hmmm... As I recall they didn't do to well in Vietnam, Algeria, parts of Africa. When did they win one by themselves? I can't seem to remember that. :roll:
 
#7
The French did not do well in Vietnam!

Neither did the Americans!

Well done France, at least they have minds of their own and are not subsumed to the will of an inarticulate semi-evolved simbiant occupying the White House at the moment!

He may have been elected, but he, like our Prime Minister, was not elected by the majority of his enfranchised public!
 
#8
Trip_Wire said:
Random_Task said:
Trip_Wire said:
I see the "maginot line" mentality written all over that comment made by France.


http://today.reuters.com/news/artic...RUKOC_0_US-SECURITY-FRANCE.xml&src=rss&rpc=22
I'm personally not the greatest fan of the French, however regardless of their political posturing/posing, the French have a wealth of experience when it comes to counter terrorism/counter insurgency. They also seemingly have no qualms about sinking you/shooting you if you're New Zealand or Clichy sous Bois.

They are probably also a potential 'wild card' in Europe (IMHO) with their independent nuclear weapons capability.

While the US, and to a lesser extent Israel are hand wringing about Iran, I'd not at all be surprised if the French nuked Iran back to the stone age, and on being called to the UN to account for themselves would probably give that very gaelic shrug and say "and what are you going to do about it?"
"French have a wealth of experience when it comes to counter terrorism/counter insurgency."

Hmmm... As I recall they didn't do to well in Vietnam, Algeria, parts of Africa. When did they win one by themselves? I can't seem to remember that. :roll:
That still counts as experience though.

May I point you in the direction of this paper:

Modern Warfare - A French view of counterinsurgency

(Combined Arms Research Library)

Also,

BACK TO THE BASICS: AN AVIATION SOLUTION TO
COUNTER-INSURGENT WARFARE


(Arthur D. Davis, Major, USAF)

An interesting little snippet for you:

Summary of Operations (page 16)

Though the French were to give the Algerians their independence in 1962, the military side of the war was a success and validation of the French counterinsurgency effort with respect to air integration. The use of “low technology” aircraft coupled with the first use of helicopter gunships gave the French Army a decided advantage against the ALN.

Through the adaptation of new technology in helicopter gunships, the use of rugged fixed wing aircraft, and close coordination with the ground component, the French proved that airpower can be key to counterinsurgent operations. In the words of a study conducted soon after the war by the Aerospace Studies Institute, “counterinsurgency is by nature a ground effort…but in this instance it was a ground effort in which airpower was the equalizer.”
 
#9
"Against terrorism, what's needed is not a war. It is, as France has done for many years, a determined fight based on vigilance at all times and effective cooperation with our partners.
I could not have put it better myself. Perhaps POTUS should ease off the domestic rhetoric and focus and engenging more effective international co-opertaion. :?

Fance is not the problem, countries like Suadi and UAE (who people fund) and Pakistian (who are myopic) should be the focus of the 'determined fight' by diplomatic, econmic and real political pressure.

The right-wing in the US seem to have mistaken France for AQ, :x Sorry but whilst Frogs may deserve some bashing over there attitude they are not the enemy and are pretty ruthless about dealing with AQ problems internally.
 
#10
SkiCarver said:
It's just preparation.... for surrender. ;-)

SC
Oh come on....

What about the collaboration and futile resistance?
 
#11
I find it depressing to see how our cousins try so very hard to alienate their former allies. In the wake of 9/11 France would have done an awful lot for the US - if Le Monde starts printing covers with "Nous Sommes Toutes Americains" on (with apologies for spelling) - then you know something's up.

What France did not do (and, much as it smarts I must applaud them for it) was take part in the invasion of Iraq. It had nothing to do with 9/11, was clearly going to screw up that part of the world and they said "non".

But - and here's the sad bit - the US administration was so incompetent, so blinded by their own stupidity that instead of thinking "Hmm, if our loyal allies object maybe we should have a rethink" they just went into full on bigoted "cheese eating surrender monkey" mode.

The French have shown time and time again that they will cheerfully kill, maim, torture and otherwise dispose of anyone who gets in their way. If they decline to take part in an activity it is because they do not see it as helping them. The US should examine exactly why no-one (apart from that lickspittle Blair and those countries bought and paid for) support their current activities. Maybe they could get a clue that way.
 

Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
#12
Trip_Wire said:
Hmmm... As I recall they didn't do to well in Vietnam, Algeria, parts of Africa. When did they win one by themselves? I can't seem to remember that. :roll:
Dear boy, the French ruled a Colonial empire in a swathe of Africa and most of Indo China rather successfully from 1820 to 1962 without the benefit of any benevolent US assistance. Not much of it was aquired other than at bayonet point.

At the same time they fought the leading Continental power (Prussia/Germany) four times .

In what we used to call The Great War - the one you guys joined three years after it started - their butcher's bill was as follows:

World War I cost France 1,357,800 dead, 4,266,000 wounded (of whom 1.5 million were permanently maimed) and 537,000 made prisoner or missing -- exactly 73% of the 8,410,000 men mobilized, according to William Shirer in The Collapse of the Third Republic. Some context: France had 40 million citizens at the start of the war; six in ten men between the ages of eighteen and twenty-eight died or were permanently maimed.
I have to laugh at the current anti-French fashion in America, and its cavalier ignorance of your own history. If you ever visit Washington DC read some of the tourist literature and find out who laid out the city for you.....without Johnny Crapaud,

A) America would have probably remained a Loyal Dominion until the 20th Century and would now be a valued member of the British Commonwealth.

B) Foggy Bottom would still be primaeval swamp

Tinkety-tonk old hat!

Lee Shaver
 
#13
Dogface said:
Goatman said:
Dear boy, the French ruled a Colonial empire in a swathe of Africa and most of Indo China rather successfully

European colonial empires left the modern world with MANY signuificant poroblems extant today, particularly in Africa.
And you see no corrolation between this and the US's current Foreign policy?
 
#14
Dogface said:
Goatman said:
Dear boy, the French ruled a Colonial empire in a swathe of Africa and most of Indo China rather successfully

European colonial empires left the modern world with MANY signuificant poroblems extant today, particularly in Africa.
Really? I never would have guessed.

The fact is that they managed to a keep a lid on things for the better part of a century. Your chap just about managed an election cycle before it all turned to runny sh1t.

Oh, and US-Soviet fun and games in the Cold War played their part too, particularly during the move towards independence for the colonies.
 

Nehustan

On ROPS
On ROPs
#16
"It is the duty of France and Europe to show that the clash of civilizations is not inevitable," he said. "No one retains this wisdom, inherited from our history, as we, French and Europeans, do," he said.


...So really not so much as the proposed dichotomy, Old Europe : New Europe, rather 'Europe IS old'
 
#17
Dogface said:
Goatman said:
Dear boy, the French ruled a Colonial empire in a swathe of Africa and most of Indo China rather successfully

European colonial empires left the modern world with MANY significant problems extant today, particularly in Africa.
IIRC the US said in the last year or so, the Brits and the french left their colonies TOO early, conveniently forgetting it was under mostly US pressure for self determination (plus the economic offensive on Britain that was the marshal plan) that the independence of many of these countries was accelerated.

One good lefty liberal argument to bring up at this point is that the current projection of US power can be equated to a "Pax Americana" of sorts, but then also follow with the point that previous "Pax"s (Romana and Britannica) came at the end/decline of their respective empires.

There is also a big difference in between the colonial problems left by Britain and France. France may have left many of its colonial possesions physically, but with language, economic deals and organisations such as the SCTIP, necessary influence from paris can still be effected.

Brits however gave independance and boogered off bar the usual groupings of mad expats. They did leave however some gopping bread making habits, unlike in french west africa where a baguette is as good as in france.

US influence in these geographic areas is rather risable and mostly orientated around winning "hearts and minds" whilst "hunting the bad guys", which at the end of the day is not an economicly practical investment approach and won't be that long lived or self supporting in the long term.
 

Nehustan

On ROPS
On ROPs
#18
I'm not sure that any one picked up on the Russian and Chinese delegations that have been doing the rounds specifically in Africa (RSA/ANC and what might presume old SWAPO/Namibia) but also in other regions. I think your point about decline is a fair point, and that for all purposes in reality the zenith has been reached re: Pax Americana, tho' I think that it was never really a success, more an aspiration/pretension.
 
#19
Dogface said:
smallbrownprivates said:
Dogface said:
Goatman said:
Dear boy, the French ruled a Colonial empire in a swathe of Africa and most of Indo China rather successfully

European colonial empires left the modern world with MANY significant problems extant today, particularly in Africa.
IIRC the US said in the last year or so, the Brits and the french left their colonies TOO early, conveniently forgetting it was under mostly US pressure for self determination....

They left an undeniable mess.
If someone tells you to get out of a rented property quicker than you can after years of occupancy and then criticises the mess and bodge jobs left, you'd call them a hypocrite wouldn't you?
 
#20
Although genetically programmed to hack at the French, in the two recent campaigns where they have politely said <<non>> to participating, one has to admire their pragmatism. They asked the "what", "where", "why" and "whats in it for us" questions and when the answers kicked up no significant return, they had an excellent opportunity to exhibit the French shrug, curl of the lip and sneer - and then rightly walk away. Bravo Johnny Crapeau!
 

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