Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by Tiffy_Massive, Jan 6, 2007.

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  1. This may not be the correct place to put this, but is very current to me having recently been informed that another serviceman has died as a result of a lack of health care.
    I am now aware of at least 2 service personnel who have been under going mental health treatment and been abandoned by the system. I say i am aware because i was in the same unit as both of them and knew them well.
    The first case had been AWOL for months when arrested by Police then seen by a senior psychological Officer in Catterick and sent on sick leave in the middle of 2006 and has not been seen since. Really good move. Someone who had been taking drugs and living on the street gets sent back to live on the street and possibly do drugs after telling the Psychologist they they would be good and not do it again, honest guv!!!

    The second case recently took their own life because they felt let down and abandoned by the system.

    As if that were not bad enough the medical cover available in Germany is pathetic. Medical centres close at 1630 hrs sharp, forcing serviceman and their families to travel up to 1 hr to be seen by a nurse and if really lucky a doctor. Medical Documents go missing with alarming regularity that is if they ever turn up in the first place upon posting. Docs are not updated correctly. Courses of injections are not recorded, the list goes on.

    Then we come to Dental treatment. What Dental treatment you say, exactly i say. We have a dental centre in our station, but i don't think the lights work because they are never on. I recently had my annual dental inspection some 8 months overdue and after badgering the receptionist constantly. I was then told by the dentist to make appointments for treatment. Now thats when the fun and games began. I could not be fitted in for 2 months because of other patients. ARRSE!!! I am now forced to deploy before being treated. The dental centre was closed for how many weeks over Christmas, why could they not work a few days more and get rid of some of the back log. My unit has been back at work for 3 days now and the dental centre is still closed.

    If my tradesmen were as bad as these so called professional people they would be severly disciplined and re-assessed at trade. I say that because if they had as much time away from the office as our so called medical professionals do they would not remain current technically and therefore have to be re-assessed.

    I now await some smart arrsed medical or dental type telling me how it is that they are so busy and cannot provide the service they are paid to provide.
  2. Don't know about the Mental Health thing, but it seems to be state normal for Med centres to be ARRSE. It is sad to see anyone lost mate, can you PM me the details as i might know him/her.
    Been posted around a bit and they all seem as bad as each other.
  3. Can you clarify what you mean by Vaccinations not being recorded; do you mean on an FMed4 on UNICOM or on the EMIS system?

    All med centres now close at 4.30 in accordance with MoD/AMD/APHCS policy, read into that what you will, perhaps its the lack of GPs due to constant deplyments or their Regimental obligations. It could also be a Medico Legal reason.

    Physcological problems are not my area of expertise but perhaps you might recall that we have no hospitals left? Therefor unless there is a significant risk of Deliberate Self Harm why should a soldier take an expensive place in the priory?

    It is my experience that Med Docs are usually requested by the losing Unit and then forwarded to the gaining unit complete with receipt by RHQ not individual Medical Centres.

    I am not a dentist so I am not speaking from experience, your quite right though people do go overdue their ADIs, that, as does Vaccinations,Pulheems and all other routine medicals falls to your Unit clerical staff to inform you when required. Cant get an appt? stop families using the dental facilities, in one fell swoop you can free up a hell of a lot of appts.
  4. Fcking Army dentists - about two months before I got out, my tooth had a crack in it. The Army dentist just kept spraying it with something and said that would fix it.

    Then it went again on resettlement, so when I returned to camp I reported dentle sick and the dentist comfirmed it was a fractured tooth, but just sprayed it with some more what ever it was and said that it *might work*.

    I've now been out of the Army for one year (the tooth started to hurt one week after treatment), and although I take good care of my teeth (I use a sonicare toothbrush), the filling in the fracture tooth has fallen out due not being able to clean inside it, as the inside of the tooth became infected. Although now I think the infection has gone due to the type of toothbrush I use (cost about a 100 quid).

    Where I live there are no NHS dentists, and being a student I cannot afford private treatment, so now I am walking around with an open filling. All because the lazy and idle dentist couldn't be bothered to fix it properly.
  5. Letterwritingman - I have had jabs both on Ops and back in camp which had not been recorded on my Operational Medical Card or PAMPAS. As a result i have had to be re-jabbed before deployment. Not a huge problem, but the Rabies jabs hurt.
    I live in a town where the local German care provider Hospital is also located. When our Med centre is closed we have to drive 45 mins down the road to the next Garrison Med centre. If we then need to go to the Hospital we have to drive all the way back again. If you had to do the same to get your car fixed, i would suggest you may seek another garage to frequent.
    Without wishing to swing the lamp, my docs had been misplaced some time ago. We found them when i returned to my trade school after being in the field force for 4 years. The Med centre had kept hold of them for 4 years. At least they were at the trade school when i returned for my course, sharpe thinking by staff no doubt. The docs have to be accurate to be useful. Unfortunately they are not. Why do we sign and amend PAMPAS printouts when they are ignored?

    I am sure most families in Germany would love to be allowed to go directly to local services for treatment, but we all pay taxes and have the right to the NHS. Local services would be more reliable and reachable. I may be wrong, but my understanding is that families use Military medical & dental facilities in place of those NHS facilities. Let us stop paying our taxes, CILOT and National Insurance and get our own health care.

    I know its not really the Med centre staff at fault, but someone in authority must know what a sad state of affairs Medical cover is in in the Forces. I have had the pleasure of attending a station Medical care meeting. Everyone around the table knew the extent of the problem, but no one seemed willing to sort it out. We even have civilians especially brought in from the UK to run our Health Care system. What a waste.
  6. The recording of jabs onto PAMPAS/UNICOM is supposed to be the responsibility of the AGC element of your Unit.

    It is my experience that most soldiers require a new FMed 965 written out each time they deploy because they lose/can't be arrsed to hand back in the one they've just been using. (Point to note Vaccinations have a 'Shelf life' so it may be that you had either missed a booster and had to start again or were just due a booster)

    The Med Centre/Hospital merry go round is not at all unusual. Your visit to the local hospital will cost money; therefor it needs to be determined to see whether or not you actually do need to go. A genuine emergency however is usually blatently apparent.

    As I stated before, it is the responsibility of RHQ to call forward a soldiers documentation to the gaining unit, I am assuming you returned to your Corp Depot for your Trade many soldiers pass through its hallowed gates each year?

    Checking and signing PAMPAS is an AGC matter, your Med Centre should inform the AGC element of what you were vaccinated against, when and when you are due a booster (if applicable) if the amendments to your record have not been made I suggest that there is only one group to blame.

    Local Services can't have it both ways either you want health care for your family as provided as best they can by the DMS which means little johnny getting a dental appt ahead of you, or you don't. There are only a finite number of Professionally Qualified Officers prepared to perform in the MoD circus. They are required perhaps more than any other single group of individuals to deploy, thats why they get to the 5 year point (which they owe) and more often than not get out. Pay is less than that they can expect outside so that is another factor. In my garrison there are perhaps 4 dentists of which at least 50% are civvies which for DRs we currently employ 6 locums.... Military Drs are usually away on OP Tours etc (other than the Senior Officers who are GP Trainers)
  7. Thanks for the reply. Point taken, but this really should be being sorted out at the highest level. Then again what hope do we have when our Tony is doing his best to run down the NHS.
    It would seem that documents across all aspects of admin support are not well maintained. As you say it is a Coy/Sqn/Regt clearks responsibility to update docs. However they would say it is the medical centre staff who should update Med docs and so on and so forth.

    You are obviously in the Medical profession. Are you aware of any projects looking at improving our lot? Is private health care on the agenda for forces families overseas?
  8. ViroBono

    ViroBono LE Moderator

    My own experience of deploying with a Fd Hosp was of being given jabs at an Army Med Cen which were not recorded anywhere, and then subsequently having to have them all again. Poor management by the QA i/c jabs, in my view, who was only interested in getting everyone processed quickly so she and her her staff could go home.

    On the other hand, my med prep for the Iraq unpleasantness was done by the RAF. In the event I didn't go the first time, but when my turn finally came, the fact that the TA unit I should have gone with the first time had lost my docs didn't matter, as a duplicate was provided at very short notice. This is because, just as when I served, the RAF annotate jabs on the FMed4.
  9. VB I can only say that that appears to have been a poorly run Vaccs Pde then; did you not have your 965 or med docs with you for them to be put straight onto. My guys when they come through always ask! Bad practice to vaccinate blind as well, perhaps you should have had a word with your Admin staff.

    I look after 400+ soldiers (by myself) Vaccs are recorded onto EMIS, 965's, Fmed4s and a local form that is sent to the ACG element for updating of Unicom. It is still something I teach to those I mentor that a hard copy entry MUST be made on the back of the FMed4.
  10. You also have to use your common sense if you or any of your family are ill and you think it is serious then you go to your local A&E if not then dont waste anyones time. You are entitled to treatment as you would be in the UK, the difference overseas is the A&E is your first point of call if you have no out of hours service, which If you bothered to look, you would find an advice line at least 24/7 manned by a medic. Who incedentley would advice you to see a doc in the local A&E. Medical centres are under the same constraints as everyone else the difference is they have to put up with families, who thru incompetance, ignorance and down right laziness will only contact the med cen out of hours despite being ill in some cases for days. I aint medical but am married to someone who is and bless her she is trying to run a medcen with -50% staff and lazy civvies but still has the workload of a full complement of staff. Generally mil families and serviceman have been abusing the medcen to such an extent that now cutbacks and own responsibility have been thrusted upon them all they can do is whine and whine and whine. No-one likes it but as the saying goes - if you dont like it get out
  11. Great reply chimp503, that must have taken ages to think up.
    Are you saying that i am now a medic? That i can decide without a medic what course of action to take? I think you may need to tell that to the bumbling duty medic who attempted to tell me off for going to the A&e instead of making a 90 min round trip for my young daughter. Why should i phone a 24 hrs help line manned by a part trained medic? He could be a newly trained medic and still be responsible for giving advice. Would you like to see a new inexperienced mechanic in an AA van that you call out in the middle of the night, just because he is a mechanic?
    I fully agree with the lazy civies comment. It would appear that far too many military bosses are afraid to raise inefficiency paperwork in lazy civi staff. If you don't tell them they won't get better.

    I must remember to tell her indoors and the rug rats that they can only be ill during working hours because its incompetant, ignorant and down right laziness to contact the med cen out of hours.

    Oh yeh and by the way your own unit LAD/Wksp is undermanned, but you still expect your kit on the road when you need it. Why should it always be the customer that has to give way? Their are practice managers out there somewhere who are being paid to provide a service. Earn the money - if they don't like it let them get out as you put it.
  12. Tiffy, Accepted that you feel that DMS are meant to provide a Service, that we do. Your arguement re part trained medics answering phones proves just how ill informed you are. All medics now passing out of training are class 2 standard, medical centre postings are reserved for class 1 medics, helplines in todays litageous society would be unlikely to be manned by inexperienced medics or indeed experienced medics.

    Your getting a similar service to that which the UK now 'now enjoys'. Your LAD is undermanned? as per my previous post I am the SOLE medic for 400+ soldiers and their admin etc; sometimes they might even do their 'A' jobs before they come in.
  13. nope, I am saying use your common sense you thick twat. obviously you dont have any. If you are sick in the uk and cant get a doc you go to hospital. Cnuts like you screw the system up - My wife is a PM and has twats like you to deal with all the time, her time is taken up with Cnuts like you who have not one brain cell to decide and make decisions for themselves, like to know what you do for a living and I would gladly slag you off you effing Cnut
  14. EAGLE1

    EAGLE1 On ROPs

    I was watching a documentary about a pathologist who was examining the skeletal remains of dead soldiers from ww1 and ww2. She said that often people who came across these skeletons would wrongly guess the age of the soldiers remains. This was because all of the teeth from the skull had been removed. Why am I telling a plank like you this you may wonder. Well because the soldiers on the battle field had a very high risk of dying from rotten teeth FACT.

    They could not get the medical treatment they needed so they had all of their teeth removed to be safe.

    Do not leave your teeth to rot because as that pathologist said ROTTEN TEETH CAN KILL YOU-FACT. I don't claim to know the exact process yet the infection gets into your blood stream through the root of your tooth.

    This can then lead to (sceptacemia) 'not sure about the spelling' and can't find it in the dictionary sorry. Anyway do not leave your teeth in a decayed state or you might just die. Rotten teeth cannot be cured by simply using a good toothbrush.

    NHS direct will get you an emergency dentist they have to do this-phone them you clown.
  15. Surprising though it may seem there is no statutory duty on the Government to provide any healthcare to the Armed Forces.

    Section 1 of the NHS Act 1977 imposes on the Secretary of State [for Health] a “duty to continue the promotion of a comprehensive health service to secure improvement (a) in the physical and mental health of the people of these countries, and (b) the prevention, diagnosis and treatment of illness, and for that purpose to provide or secure the effective provision of services in accordance with this Act” but this is for civilians only.

    There is no equivalent duty on the Secretary of State for Defence to provide healthcare to the Armed Forces.