Discussion in 'The Intelligence Cell' started by Forces_Sweetheart, Feb 17, 2004.
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My mate living in Canada belongs to an Air Museum co-op. they've just bought an old F-4 Phantom 'Wild Weasel' and have just recieved FAA authorisation to fly the thing. fun...
Must remember to do the Lotto this weekend... could have my own OpFor going...Bolshoi roubles though...
no chance in uk already one private owner has air worthy f4 and another
chap has rebuilt a lighting neither are aloud to fly .Guess crab air dont want the embraessment of being out flown by civis .
THe mig 29is supposed to be more than match for tornado so they wouldnt want to go up against one even on exercise
It's not the RAF who don't allow these things to fly, it's the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA). They have control of UK airspace and the military operate under delegated authority from the CAA.
Bluntly the CAA do not wish to allow supersonic aircraft into private hands. If some idiot went supersonic over a major city centre in a doom tube or similar and you could do an awful lot of damage from the overpressure. You'd blow out every window in sight, cut up pedestrians with the bits and deafen a lot of people.
Whether or not you think this is regulatory overkill is another matter of course.
Sounds like a f*****g good laugh to me, but then I always wanted a surplus US Navy PBR (a la Apocolypse Now) to go tear-arsing around the Norfolk Broads in the summertime and terrorise the normals...
And now I just blow s**t up for a living...hmmm...
Always wanted a Vosper 44' MTB myself, for much the same thing on the Thames
Or one of those Higgins PT Boats , ever since I saw "They were expendable"
Interesting price point on that Mig29. A few years ago, I was offered a Mig 29 UB (2 seater) for $1,000,000 in cold hard. Aircraft was offered as unairworthy , but a couple of signatures and an engine change was all that was required to change that!
Spoke to an American who'd had another couple of aircraft via me, and God's honest, he wanted to form a consortium to buy the bloody thing! He was serious too, and wanted to deposit $100k in escrow to the Air Force involved.
Anyway, deal fell through, due to doubtful provenance on the airframe, and The US authorites having the absolute vapours over the whole thing.
Ahhhh the eastern Bloc between 89 and 93, happy buccaneering days
Anyway, any word on when those Jaguars are coming up for sale yet ?
I knew a captain in the TA who was brokering the sale of much of the Red Banner Northern Fleet submarines (Alfas mostly) from Archangelskoye (I think) and Murmansk. Mad Jock bloke...wonder what became of that particular deal...?
a couple of ww11 MTbs have ended there days as house boats in shoreham harbour
cheapness wise theres some old aac scouts going 85 grand a piece saw some photos of one ferrying walters about with bb guns on the sennybridge fibuia village
The MIG-29 Fulcrum (and for that matter SU-27 Flanker) is superb at within visual range (WVR) air-air combat due to it's excellent manoeuverability, oustanding AA-11 missiles, and the pilots helmet mounted sight. This enables him to engage targets simply by looking at the target (much like an Apache). Therefore, he can shoot in a considerably larger envelope than any western fighter employing Sidewinder style missiles (which are outclassed by the AA-11). Therefore, close in, a Fulcrum or Flanker that is half decently flown will kill ANY western aircraft including US jets such as the F-15C.
However, Beyond Visual Range (BVR) it's a totally different game. The Fulcrum's radar, EW systems and cockpit ergonomics are absolutely appalling. It also has very little endurance (although Flanker has loads of gas), and it's longer range missiles (the AA-10) are far inferior to the AMRAAM. Therefore, in exercise and war, the Fulcrum's get shot out of the sky BVR, often before they've even realised that they're getting engaged. Certainly, during GW1 and during the Kosovo crisis, it was a turkey shoot whenever the Fulcrum's pressed. Therefore, a Tornado F3 would be confident of winning against a Fulcrum due to it's superior radar, EW systems and the SA he gets from JTIDS. All he has to do is avoid getting pulled into the WVR fight.
Thankfully, the advent of the latest western IR 'dogfight' missiles such as the UK ASRAAM and US AIM-9X mean that even the Fulcrum's WVR superiority is being eroded.
The problem lies with emission controls and the fact that the Lightning pumps out enough crap to give even the US a headache. The poor chap that owns the aircraft still gets to taxi it around the airfield. Gets up to takeoff speed and pops out a parachute. Each to their own.
The problem lies with the fact that the controlling powers, ie the Campaign Against Aviation and more especially the govt, don't like the idea of subjects cruising around in semi-modern warplanes. Imagine what would happen if one of the pissed-off owners, probably an ex-crab pilot, got it into his head to leave his Labrador at home and attach his pair of Purdeys under the wings with black nasty ! It'd be......insurrection !
Fair enough MM, but i thought that the Boxheads had successfully upgraded the avionics on their former DDR '29s to avert this shortcoming?
I watched a telly docco about Mikoyan and Gureyevitch and they were standing in the factory talking about just this topic (not actually them, but he current boss of the company) - the airframe was sound, but the avionics were sh1te. Consequently they were doing a deal with the Far East to acquire up-graded avionics packages to suit the end-users' needs...
The Lufwaffe MIG-29s all received minor upgrades (primarily radios, IFF, instrumentation and some 'maintainability' things) to enable them limited integration with NATO forces; Czech, Hungarian and Polish Fulcrum's have received similar mods. Essentially, all these nations MIG-29's are first generation A models with the same sensors and weapons systems.
You are quite correct however that most Russian fighters such as the Fulcrum and Flanker are now being marketed with various options of weatern avionics and updated Russian radars. Indian Flankers in particular have got French avionics and even thrust vectoring which makes it a very dangerous opponent. However, even the latest Russian export radars and the AA-12 missile are largely inferior to Western kit. The F-15 is still king of the air!
The F3 is okay due to the fact that it's radar is now quite respectable and it has ASRAAM and JTIDS. Most significantly, it has 2 crew and the F3 force have developed some very good tactics which reduce the impact of the aircrafts 2 biggest weaknesses: poor high altitude performance, and limited manoeuverability.
OK, since we're all putting our anoraks on it's worth looking at how the Sovs planned to use the Fulcrum at al during a european conflict and how it wasn't a bad piece of kit for that limited role. In the West of course we design kit that can go anywhere and do anything and sneer at anything less capable. The Sovs recognised this and planned to fight a war that played to their strengths - a weakness that cannot be exploited is not a weakness and all that.
So they planned some very simple tactics. (And I'm talking about Frontal Aviation here, not Long Range Aviation or PVO Strany or anyone else) First off the air defence was given free fire at anything in the sky unless it was in a predesignated corridor - these had a limited lifespan. Those corridors would appear over the advancing formations and immediately fill with fighter squadrons (ie a whole squadron all lined up) who'd sweep it clear. Fly straight ahead and wax anything you find. The western superiority in BVR is fine but by the time you've hit one or two the rest have closed to knife-fighting range and taken you out.
Then waves of ground attack aircraft come through - more fighters, more ground attack and repeat until everythings been through. Switch off the corridor and let the SAMs blat away at anything they find. When the aircraft are ready again, repeat.
The Fulcrum et al would have been able to do this quite readily. Whether or not the big plan was sound is something that we were mercifully spared from finding out.
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