Some tit started an ATO/Sapper slagging thread in the RLC forum and they are slating the Corps Big Time, here is the latest quoted from there: Dibble Joined: Mar 05, 2005 Posts: 49 Location: Hunting through the garbage Re: ATO/Sapper Different? Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 10:54 am -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- M2aB The Sappers have a go at us every five years and so far we have managed to bat them off. This time though it is tough fight as there is some high powered birdshite on thier side. They have thier place in warfighting when mobility is the prime objective. Very quick dirty RSP's to keep the battlegroup moving and it doesn't matter too much if they take casualties. Its war. Plus you don't want to lose any of your highly trained blokes when they are better employed elsewhere, ie, protection of the Log train upto the FEBA. Most of the UXO stuff is denial of captured enemy stocks etc. An assualt pioneer within an Inf battalion is trained in dems enough to be able to do this. Indeed they were during the war. It is quick, dirty and you can get things such as that fateful word "Kick Out". But hey its a war you just want to acheive the main aim and move on. The problem comes when the warfighting is over. It quickly reverts to Peace Support/Enforcement Ops. Mobility is not at stake - force protection is. Obviously the two EOD areas can be split into functional work areas. IEDD and CMD. When you want to provide credible IEDD force protection you want your best blokes doing the job. This way they can carryout safe RSP's, gather forensic evidence and exploit what they find. This way the whole force enjoys the benefit in that this activity informs the counter measure process. RE EOD do not have the background, trade or intellectual knowledge to be able to do this so it falls to the RLC who draw on their own ammunition trade background. As for CMD RE EOD are useful. They are trained to deal with UXO (OK - single item at a time after a long consulatation with a computer database) the amount of tasks that come in means that you require a larger footprint of teams on the ground. The problem comes when they are tasked to a number of items together. This may be 10 different items or 1000's. Currently our brethern are still attempting to blow this stuff up even though they are not trained to do so. They move stuff around in the back of LR or trailers and into pits without being positive about the items safety. Stack it all up in wonderful strange configarations that any tech would laugh at then place the world largest amount of serviceable explosive on top "Just to Make Sure". The problem of Kick Out still exsists with the RE (we call it creation of blinds!). Any one want to challenge that statement? I have a man on the inside watching them doing it. But what is criminal is they don't clear their mess up - they just leave it, to be called out to another day. Bumping the stats up you see. Proffesional my Arrse! On the other hand give the task to the same technicians above and it is a different story. Large, carefully calculated and configured stacks and the use of minimal amounts of serviceable explosive does the trick with nothing left what so ever. All wedge on Telic 1 will aknowledge this, even 33's 2 I/C. So M2aB hope that gives you some more weight to add to you fight. If want a proffesional EOD capability that brings lots to the party choose a technician with an ammo background. If you want a whole pile of unproffesionalism, but lots of um that boasts about the amount of PE they have used choose Engineers. They are basically saying that RE's are not taught anything other than the destruction of the odd single item and that the basic Infantry Pioneer is as good, are there any RE EOD lads who have been on Operations in the last 3 or 4 years who have been involved with the RLC and JEOD ops here in the Forum? if there are, you should get onto that thread as they are trying to make the current 33 Personnel look like a bunch of Cnuts!!!