For Attention of current 33 EOD...

Discussion in 'Sappers' started by RedMistUK, Aug 28, 2005.

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  1. Some tit started an ATO/Sapper slagging thread in the RLC forum and they are slating the Corps Big Time, here is the latest quoted from there:




    Dibble



    Joined: Mar 05, 2005
    Posts: 49
    Location: Hunting through the garbage
    Re: ATO/Sapper Different?
    Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 10:54 am

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    M2aB

    The Sappers have a go at us every five years and so far we have managed to bat them off. This time though it is tough fight as there is some high powered birdshite on thier side.

    They have thier place in warfighting when mobility is the prime objective. Very quick dirty RSP's to keep the battlegroup moving and it doesn't matter too much if they take casualties. Its war. Plus you don't want to lose any of your highly trained blokes when they are better employed elsewhere, ie, protection of the Log train upto the FEBA.
    Most of the UXO stuff is denial of captured enemy stocks etc. An assualt pioneer within an Inf battalion is trained in dems enough to be able to do this. Indeed they were during the war. It is quick, dirty and you can get things such as that fateful word "Kick Out". But hey its a war you just want to acheive the main aim and move on.

    The problem comes when the warfighting is over. It quickly reverts to Peace Support/Enforcement Ops. Mobility is not at stake - force protection is. Obviously the two EOD areas can be split into functional work areas. IEDD and CMD.
    When you want to provide credible IEDD force protection you want your best blokes doing the job. This way they can carryout safe RSP's, gather forensic evidence and exploit what they find. This way the whole force enjoys the benefit in that this activity informs the counter measure process. RE EOD do not have the background, trade or intellectual knowledge to be able to do this so it falls to the RLC who draw on their own ammunition trade background.

    As for CMD RE EOD are useful. They are trained to deal with UXO (OK - single item at a time after a long consulatation with a computer database) the amount of tasks that come in means that you require a larger footprint of teams on the ground. The problem comes when they are tasked to a number of items together. This may be 10 different items or 1000's. Currently our brethern are still attempting to blow this stuff up even though they are not trained to do so. They move stuff around in the back of LR or trailers and into pits without being positive about the items safety. Stack it all up in wonderful strange configarations that any tech would laugh at then place the world largest amount of serviceable explosive on top "Just to Make Sure". The problem of Kick Out still exsists with the RE (we call it creation of blinds!). Any one want to challenge that statement? I have a man on the inside watching them doing it. But what is criminal is they don't clear their mess up - they just leave it, to be called out to another day. Bumping the stats up you see. Proffesional my Arrse!
    On the other hand give the task to the same technicians above and it is a different story. Large, carefully calculated and configured stacks and the use of minimal amounts of serviceable explosive does the trick with nothing left what so ever. All wedge on Telic 1 will aknowledge this, even 33's 2 I/C.


    So M2aB hope that gives you some more weight to add to you fight. If want a proffesional EOD capability that brings lots to the party choose a technician with an ammo background. If you want a whole pile of unproffesionalism, but lots of um that boasts about the amount of PE they have used choose Engineers.



    They are basically saying that RE's are not taught anything other than the destruction of the odd single item and that the basic Infantry Pioneer is as good, are there any RE EOD lads who have been on Operations in the last 3 or 4 years who have been involved with the RLC and JEOD ops here in the Forum? if there are, you should get onto that thread as they are trying to make the current 33 Personnel look like a bunch of Cnuts!!!
     
  2. See how much time these f**kin REMFs have on their hands when not counting blankets and pretending to be soldiers. Compiling and comparing files on their job descriptions. F*uck em mate, they're not worth it. At the end of the day they are the laughing stock of the Army and the Sappers are respected by most.
     
  3. Aye - I think we should all refrain from posting in reply to this stuff and all bask in the knowledge that one of their own acknowledges that our role is war fighting and theirs is pissing around when it's all over. Feel free to be smug as f*ck, brothers! :D
     
  4. In MTAB's defense the initial question he asks is "What is the difference between ATO and Sapper"

    I believe this to be a fair question requiring a fair answer. If you bother to read the thread it shows, by MTAB's own admittance, that he has a very poor understanding of the difference.... Hence the thread.

    In the thread you will find some people do try to explain the difference... unfortunately it goes down hill when the age old them and us appears .... and yes you guessed it .... it turns into a slagging match.
     
  5. Yes Gundolph it is a fair question coming from an American, and the normal RE Cbt Engr Role is what is being compared by him, however you should note that everyone on that thread is jumping on the band wagon and claiming RE EOD are inferior to RLC etc. at normal EOD Operations, which is absolute nonsense, I'm surprised that no one from 33 or DEODS (RE) have not confronted these idiots mainly RLC with the truth! check the messages in that thread correctly, yes many of them are quoting our Corps wide War role but they fail to mention 33's Role and when they do, they then claim 33 EOD Engineers are not trained to deal with more than 1 item at a time and when they do they then have to rely heavily on a computer!!! they seem to be forgetting that it was the RLC who would generally get called out to the INDIVIDUAL item and when there are more than 1 or 2 items it is RE EOD who are called in, the way they are slating the Corps and in particular 33 is ridiculous, since they were allowed on Battlefield Ops with the start of JEODS during Kosovo? they are acting like they are the be all and end all of EOD and any RE whether he is a Sapper or an Officer are inept at everything they do!!! READ ALL THE MESSAGES IN THAT THREAD and you will see the underhand tactics that a few of them are using to BIG themselves up, as several of them are relatively new Users it will no doubt be the same individuals using various Usernames! someone who is current 33 should stop them in their tracks as they are spouting absolute rubbish, that is of course unless 33 have totally gone downhill in the past few years and really were outdone by the RLC, RAF etc. in Kosovo, Sierra Leone and Iraq?! But somehow I do doubt that!!!
     
  6. I was very pissed off when I read some of the posts and I might post a reply but i am going to put an hour or so of thought into it. For those that know me I don't have axes to grind and have some good mates in 11 and the ATo world who I have enormous respect for, one of which was very badly injured last month in the sandy place. The vast majority of posts were being made by entrenched SNCOs who may not know the full story. My initial slant is that RE EOD is not as well trained in the technical ins and outs of munitions, that is fact. however its an ethos thing. Where an AT will design an incredibly elaborate RSP from his great knowledge a sapper will put a few more sandbags around it before it gets hit with a low order technique. Both get the job done, neither is incorrect but they approach the task from differnt angles.
     
  7. Well its always good to have some good healthy bun fights here on the forum, and I can't let this one go without having my 2 pennies worth.

    I think that both capbadges have there fair share of Richard Heads although with only 280 AT's and ATO's it would seem that from my personal experience the RLC may have the higher percentage!!
    The RE BD world has still got a great deal to learn and the BDO's (and yes I am one) are not helped by a poor but improving course still bases on a UXB found on the streets of the Medway towns. I think that the shift in training is good with an RLC element involved in all aspects of the courses and he can offer things that no RE can. Also with the re-emergence of RE's going on the JSIEDD the cross training has begun.
    Certainly last year CMD teams from the RLC took part on our exercises, and by all accounts enjoyed and hopefully gained some training value out of it.
    The sooner we make the effort on both sides and stop trying to pull in different directions the better, and yet for every 2 or 3 steps forward it only takes on incident or clash and we are back to square 1. The 2 ATO's i worked with last year in that poo hole were both pro combined EOD but not pro 2 pip wonder from the RE's believing there own hype and trying to boss the show. I hope that the JFEOD group can work a little bit better over the next year, but only time will tell.
     
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  9. Said 2 pip wonder had to do extra time at Sandhurst as he was so good! That was the story over there at the time, that said, things did improve when the grown ups from the Sqn arrived. As for the JFEOD concept, it's a good one if everyone sticks to what they know. As for an earlier comment about war-fighting, was'nt the war declared over a while back!!!!!!!

    Maybe the lead should be handed over. 8O
     
  10. Saw ATO dems of LSA in Falklands - had dems pit 150m away from ammo dump - kick out from dems and into dump - then big bang. RE EOD spent weeks clearing up the mess.

    By the way I think we should have JS EOD unit not 4 EOD units
     
  11. Kibris, PM with any details and I will ensure that sufficient piss is ripped for being too damn lazy to walk further.

    Unfortunately every trade has its cowboys and AT/ATO, sapper or RAF BDO are no different in that respect. I knew a RAF BDO who fragged himself in the chin when he was getting rid of grenades by throwing them.
     
  12. chimera

    chimera LE Moderator

    Gents

    The RLC v RE slagging match has had extensive airing on several threads here. Keep further comments on this thread SENSIBLE and RELEVANT otherwise they will be deleted.