Follow up on Previous Thread About USMC/USA Patrol Being Denied Critical Fire Support

#1
This is a follow up to several threads on ARRSE in the past (http://www.arrse.co.uk/current-affa...-support-usmc-afghan-ambush-investigated.html and http://www.arrse.co.uk/current-affairs-news-analysis/118767-3-usmc-kia-afghanistan.html ) that discussed the ROE and other issues related to an ill-fated (numerous KIA/WIA) combined USMC/US Army and ANA patrol that was ambushed and decimated allegedly due to the refusal of higher headquarters to provide needed fire support.

I post it for a reason other than merely to puff up my Corps. Note the ethnic backgrounds two of those involved who received the 2nd highest valor award in the US--a captain of Nigerian descent and a staff sergeant of Mexican heritage. ImmigrationProf Blog: Immigrants of the Day: Capt. Ademola Fabayo (Nigeria) and Staff Sgt. Juan Rodriguez-Chavez (Mexico)

I hope this will be kept in mind when I am accused of being bigoted etc. in that in terms of those serving, their race and ethnicity is irrelevant--at least from the perspective of the USMC they are Marines....period.

Here is a more detailed report of what they and others, including one whose nomination for the Medal of Honor is pending, did that fateful day (also note at the end what happened to those officers involved in the decision to withhold needed fire support): Marines earn Navy Cross for Ganjgal heroism - Marine Corps News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Marine Corps Times







http://www.marines.mil/unit/mcbquan...NavyCrossforvalorousactionsinAfghanistan.aspx
 
#5
I saw some of a thing the other night on Marine training, and I laughed my socks off. Well, not literally. There was one scene where two DS were about half a centimetre from this fellas face shouting at him. Whilst shouting at him they seemed to get excited and started wildly gesticulating and even dribbling/spitting. Can't really see what that did...would have made me larf.
 
#7
I saw some of a thing the other night on Marine training, and I laughed my socks off. Well, not literally. There was one scene where two DS were about half a centimetre from this fellas face shouting at him. Whilst shouting at him they seemed to get excited and started wildly gesticulating and even dribbling/spitting. Can't really see what that did...would have made me larf.
I for one would have enjoyed immensely being present when you "larfed" under such circumstances. ;-)

What that, and all the other well-choreographed performances at USMC boot camp, are intended to do is to strip away the civilian encrustations in the shortest possible time through disorientation (for example, it is no coincidence that they arrive after a long bus ride and at night) and extreme physical and psychological stress (although I hasten to add not actual physical assault that was common in the old days but will now immediately cause the offender to be relieved of the coveted position of drill instructor and disciplined, up to and including court martial if warranted) in order to "rebuild" the recruit into the sort that we expect in the USMC.

I can assure you that while it may not be understood or acceptable to those in other services with other views as to how to train their own recruits, this system is not at all random as it may appear to a recruit or an outsider seeing only one part of the entire process. Indeed, it is the result of a constant evaluation and adaptation process that adjusts aspects of the indoctrination process with the type of recruit society is providing but without adversely affecting the core aspects of the process that have proven successful over the last 75 years or so.
 

cpunk

LE
Moderator
#12
I for one would have enjoyed immensely being present when you "larfed" under such circumstances. ;-)

What that, and all the other well-choreographed performances at USMC boot camp, are intended to do is to strip away the civilian encrustations in the shortest possible time through disorientation (for example, it is no coincidence that they arrive after a long bus ride and at night) and extreme physical and psychological stress (although I hasten to add not actual physical assault that was common in the old days but will now immediately cause the offender to be relieved of the coveted position of drill instructor and disciplined, up to and including court martial if warranted) in order to "rebuild" the recruit into the sort that we expect in the USMC.

I can assure you that while it may not be understood or acceptable to those in other services with other views as to how to train their own recruits, this system is not at all random as it may appear to a recruit or an outsider seeing only one part of the entire process. Indeed, it is the result of a constant evaluation and adaptation process that adjusts aspects of the indoctrination process with the type of recruit society is providing but without adversely affecting the core aspects of the process that have proven successful over the last 75 years or so.
But essentially based on the assumption that you have to shout at people a lot to get the best out of them... and I'm not sure that's actually true.
 
#14
I saw some of a thing the other night on Marine training, and I laughed my socks off. Well, not literally. There was one scene where two DS were about half a centimetre from this fellas face shouting at him. Whilst shouting at him they seemed to get excited and started wildly gesticulating and even dribbling/spitting. Can't really see what that did...would have made me larf.
There was a certain amount of that when I was in basic training. It was frequently accompanied by a punch, kick, slap or a whack from a cut down broom stick (NCOs carried them as a 'teaching aid' ostensibly for pointing at maps and diagrams). It wasn't as ritualised as the USMC version, and didn't come from every instructor. Personally I think that you get more out of people through encouragement and good example, but the 'confrontational approach' worked initially for instilling automatic obedience and quickly breaking some lazy civilian outlooks.
 
#15
I for one would have enjoyed immensely being present when you "larfed" under such circumstances. ;-)
I'll bet you would :)

What that, and all the other well-choreographed performances at USMC boot camp, are intended to do is to strip away the civilian encrustations in the shortest possible time through disorientation (for example, it is no coincidence that they arrive after a long bus ride and at night) and extreme physical and psychological stress (although I hasten to add not actual physical assault that was common in the old days but will now immediately cause the offender to be relieved of the coveted position of drill instructor and disciplined, up to and including court martial if warranted) in order to "rebuild" the recruit into the sort that we expect in the USMC.

I can assure you that while it may not be understood or acceptable to those in other services with other views as to how to train their own recruits, this system is not at all random as it may appear to a recruit or an outsider seeing only one part of the entire process. Indeed, it is the result of a constant evaluation and adaptation process that adjusts aspects of the indoctrination process with the type of recruit society is providing but without adversely affecting the core aspects of the process that have proven successful over the last 75 years or so.
Don't get me wrong, I understand why they shout etc, I have done basic myself, although not marine basic which may have been much more amusing ;). I just can't see how two people bobbing up and down, waving their arms wildly about like lunatics, dribbling whilst shouting hysterically at some fella does anything apart from make him deaf. To me it looked like even the DS had lost the plot, which isn't really a good example....each to their own though. An RSM would put them to shame.
 

A2_Matelot

LE
Book Reviewer
#16
But essentially based on the assumption that you have to shout at people a lot to get the best out of them... and I'm not sure that's actually true.
I don't think that's what he said nor what they try to achieve - they want to very quickly get the recruit to the stage whereby they react, immediately and do exactly what is asked, without hesitation. The verbal battering is just a mechanism to get the recruits used to reacting without giving them time to pause and starting thinking [or not thinking as is often the case]. I'd question how useful it is in delivering a thinking, adaptable soldier though, a CTC they have a different ethos although there is a still a lot of barking, just less phlegm and dribble.
 
#17
Any British RSM bawling a run of bawdy epithets at some poor scrotey squaddy always got a speedy result, which same squaddy never put himself in line for second verbal assault, if he was properly wired up, trust me, I was that squaddy, only once tho.
 
#18
Any British RSM bawling a run of bawdy epithets at some poor scrotey squaddy always got a speedy result, which same squaddy never put himself in line for second verbal assault, if he was properly wired up, trust me, I was that squaddy, only once tho.
Depends, if you want them to run up a hill or jump over a fence, by all means shout and stamp your feet, it's has the opposite effect when your trying to teach something intricate like map reading. I think is what the jist was/is.
 
#20
But essentially based on the assumption that you have to shout at people a lot to get the best out of them... and I'm not sure that's actually true.
If you will re-read my post (or if interested do a bit of research if you don't believe me) I noted that everything (and I mean everything) done is carefully and intentionally done for a purpose. Obviously, and as I already acknowledged, this approach may not be the way other services do it whether in the US (to my knowledge no other service does it the way we do or has as long a boot camp) or elsewhere. The entire "experience" (and that is what it is-a total immersion experience) is carefully calculated (including input from psychologists etc.) to accomplish the purpose of converting civilians into basic Marines.
 

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