Flying and Fatigue Management

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by Toastie, Jan 13, 2011.

Welcome to the Army Rumour Service, ARRSE

The UK's largest and busiest UNofficial military website.

The heart of the site is the forum area, including:

  1. Weird enquiry but stick with it if you can!

    Can anybody help on this? Can you give me an idea of the Duty Time or Flight Time Limitations (or whatever it is called in the military) placed on military pilots? I'm particularly interested if you can provide details of limits on ops.

    To try and put your mind at rest: I am not a journo having a sniff round but I do have an agenda. I'm an ex (failed APC) AAC officer who went on to a civy career now flying for a UK charter operation. I'm a rep for my company pilots with the British Airline Pilots Association (BALPA) and there is a bit of poo flying about on the subject of Duty Hours. I'm interested as to how limits being suggested for civy pilots stack up against the military equivalent.

    For those of you who don't know (and given that at least some of those serving will be looking to fly civy on leaving), the current UK limits as contained in CAP371 are likely to be replaced by a European set formulated by EASA (EU equivalent of and replacing UK CAA).

    They are horrendous and WILL lead to knackered pilots flying you and yours around the place. Hopefully you get the civy job and then it will be your health on the line as well (just when you thought you were safe!)

    Yes BALPA is a union of sorts and yes I know the military have little truck with the unions but this is not about shutting the lot for a few extra quid - this is about safety.

    All info will be in the strictest confidence and I will deidentify before passing on to our campaign coordinators. Post or PM if you wish for my personal email address.

    Many thanks.
  2. MOD policy (JSP 550, Regulation 345) is that aircrew fatigue management is at least as stringent as UK civilian regulations and within the limits imposed in NATO STANAG 3527. The STANAG is unclassified, so you might be able to find it online.

    Specific limits by aircraft type are given in the particular Command or Group orders relevent to the crew, but these are restricted documents and cannot be reproduced here.

    If you write nicely to MOD stating your case, they may release the data to you. The phrases to use are Crew Duty Time and Crew Rest Period.
  3. Excellent. Thanks for that. Appreciate the Restricted issue - is there any particular "desk" at the MoD you could suggest?

    Interesting that the JSP has mil crews at least as tightly controlled as CAP371. Keep an eye on that as the EASA proposals are very bad news. If the JSP follows that then me going to Tenerife and back through the night is one thing, operating in the middle of a two way range will be quite another I would imagine.

    Thanks again for the guidance.
  4. Thanks again.
  5. You bugger. Do you know how irritating it is to receive those things? Particularly ones (like this one) where you can't make the answer up?

    V_M: Author of several entirely fabricated and subjective FOI answers, crafted in seconds to questions submitted by nosy cretins (not that I'm suggesting the OP is a nosy cretin)
  6. You mean there are inquiries that cannot just be given the answer of "42" and shuffled off?
  7. Nosy yes. Cretin yes.

    Guilty as charged but with genuine interest.

    See PMs
  8. OP (original poster) means I wasn't calling you a cretin.
  9. Oooh. Realy bad poetry!
  10. Far too opaque. I found that one of those 8 Ball thingies with the floating answer in the window was best.

    The FOI system did get some early adjustment after it was realised that public servants with no interest in the public (like me) were just making FOI answers up and some checks were introduced. This thwarted some of my finest replies to the tinfoil hatters convinced that Lynx was being used in the Rendlesham Forest to scare the public away from visiting martians.
  11. V-M, your past experience of FOI notwithstanding, the detail the OP is after is readily available in published documents. I could have cut and pasted it here or PM'd him but for some of the detail being restricted. An FOI request for this would be an easy way for a grown-up to release the data.
  12. LMAO! floaty 8-ball random answer, classic!

  13. Old thread, but wanted to correct this, military pilots often well exceed the equivalent civilian regs and reg 345 (now MRP, available online) isnt worth the paper its written on as a result. Sometimes justifiably, most of the time because we simply do not have enough trained crews to meet the tasking.
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2014