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Flightradar 24

Must be very different & alien going from a standard yoke to the PlayStation side stick.
I’d much prefer the yoke. I think It’d be easier to get a feel of what the aircraft is doing & adjust inputs.

Can‘t comment, never done it.

Can‘t speak for Airbus but the 787, which has a genuine fly by wire control system, has a feedback loop that provides control column forces to counteract the lack of sensation.

I share your misgivings though and there’s a body of opinion that believes the gross mishandling of the Air France A340 that stalled and fluttered all the way down into the sea with virtually zero forward speed and a high nose attitude wouldn’t have happened on a Boeing because the control column position and feel would’ve looked plain wrong. The lack of both on the Airbus may arguably have contributed to the crew’s confusion?

Talking to guys who’ve made the step across, the side stick isn’t the hard bit, it’s the thrust levers not moving in most Autothrottle modes that they found the hardest to get used to. With experience you can set thrust / know what thrust the Autothrottle has set remarkably accurately just by sensing where the thrust levers are with your hand on them.

It’s for that reason that it’s recommended to have your hand on the thrust levers when the Autothrottle is moving them and also to be in a position to take over if the system does something silly, a feature in the Turkish 737 that crashed at Schipol: The A/T didn’t power up once a deceleration had been completed and the crew missed it, the aircraft stalled as the speed bled off and the rest is history.

In the sim, I always rammed this home to students and if they didn’t do it I just failed the A/T on them but then I’m a c*nt. if they did it a second time I’d fail just one side so as the power came on, the thing would roll on its back.

That makes me a right, proper, oceangoing c*nt but lessons learnt the hard way are best learnt in an environment where it’ll cost you a pint, not your life.

Interestingly, Boeing have removed that bit of guidance from the 787 Flight Crew Training Manual which IMHO is a retrograde step so I still do it, Examiners ask me why, I tell them and there’s no comeback. Good Airmanship IMVHO.
 
I once had a cabby in an Advanced Experimental Helicopter simulator at RAE Bedford. The cockpit was an adaptation of the Harrier cockpit but the throttle lever had been adapted to become the collective lever and they’d fitted a side-stick on the right for the cyclic. After a couple of minutes it became quite intuitive.
A bit more experience, and you'd be able to operate a back-hoe-digger, type of thing !! ;) .
 
A bit more experience, and you'd be able to operate a back-hoe-digger, type of thing !! ;) .

Now that stuff really foxes me. Years back there was a place near Exeter called IIRC Diggerland. Kids (large and small) could have a go at back hoe type things like picking a box up from a circle and putting it another one.

My kids were very good at it. All I’m saying about my effort is that it’s just as well the bloody things were bolted to the ground or I’d have demolished half of Devon.

A man must know his limitations as Clint Eastwood said.

I‘ve not been near one since.
 
I’d probably keep bumping in to stuff, or drop it in the sea...
It can be one of those "deep-joy", zen-like experiences, when you realise that the bucket; hydraulic arm(s); and, tracks are ALL working intuitively, with do conscious input at all from yourself . . . when suddenly - to MY experience - the bloody machine will start juddering and bucking, with only your lap-belt keeping you in your seat :( .

All whilst on level terra-firma(?), with fortunately no sign of water, anywhere ;) .
 

Ritch

LE
Just had a message from a guy who pilots BA 747's. Looks like it's fake news that Rossiya is taking seven of BA's fleet and he's still due to fly one from CWL at 1pm tomorrow to Kemble for scrapping.
 
It can be one of those "deep-joy", zen-like experiences, when you realise that the bucket; hydraulic arm(s); and, tracks are ALL working intuitively, with do conscious input at all from yourself . . . when suddenly - to MY experience - the bloody machine will start juddering and bucking, with only your lap-belt keeping you in your seat :( .

All whilst on level terra-firma(?), with fortunately no sign of water, anywhere ;) .

Bit of drift but hey ho(e)

 

BlipDriver

Swinger
We controlled the Weston On The Green droppers at LJAO, could prove interesting when they wanted a higher level against traffic descending into London.
Ah, Weston On The Green with its delightful four letter acronym ;), not sure who works them these days, but Hinton to the north works with the TC Cowly controller.
Redlands always wanted to climb into L9 in the bit where Swanwick are trying to get TMA departures up, Bristol arrivals down & Brize, who worked Redlands, were trying to do their thing as well. Summer weekends could be very trying.
 

BlipDriver

Swinger
Snip...
I share your misgivings though and there’s a body of opinion that believes the gross mishandling of the Air France A340 that stalled and fluttered all the way down into the sea with virtually zero forward speed and a high nose attitude wouldn’t have happened on a Boeing because the control column position and feel would’ve looked plain wrong. The lack of both on the Airbus may arguably have contributed to the crew’s confusion?
...End snip
Always wondered about this one, with the reported attitude they were at, wouldn't they have noticed what angle their bodies were at e.g. where their personal weight was resting?
 
Always wondered about this one, with the reported attitude they were at, wouldn't they have noticed what angle their bodies were at e.g. where their personal weight was resting?

You’d have thought so! However, there’s a phenomenon known as “The Leans”. which confuses Somatgravic Sensation (today’s first clever word, there will be more). It can also cause motion sickness and is essentially a disconnect in your brain between what your eyes are seeing and what you’re body (ears, amongst other bits, believe it or not) is telling you about which way is up. That’s why motion sickness is often relieved by seeing the horizon moving, your brain can connect the motion being felt with the motion being seen.

The (IIRC) Dutch Navy came up with a neat gadget to help guys in windowless compartments on ships; it’s essentially a bedside light with a horizontal slit cut in the shade that shines out a line of light onto the walls replicating the horizon. It’s mounted on a gyroscopically stabilised platform to keep it horizontal so you see a truly horizontal line on the wall, no matter what the wall is doing and what you are feeling.

In aircraft we have an Artificial Horizon, more commonly called an Attitude Indicator. This shows you where you are in relation to the horizon when you can’t see it (rather than the likelihood of the pilot telling you to feck off or give you a kiss) such as in cloud or at night over the sea, as in the AF crash.

Problem is, our bodies are astonishingly badly designed for flying as unlike birds and insects etc, we’ve not developed over millions of years of evolution to design out all our failings. One failing is the argument that goes on between your inner ear and other bits and your eyes reading the instruments, the instrument is usually right although to be fair, in the AF crash they were getting dud info but they could easily have used other instruments and cues such as the control positions to sort themselves out.

Balance in your inner ear is sorted by 3 “semi circular canals“ in each ear. They are set up in the 3 axes, up/down, left/right/, forward/back and use vertical and no movement as a reference or datum. They sense any deviation from that reference and tell your brain at which point, unless you’re pissed and/or flying an aircraft, your brain makes commands to the rest of your body to do something that stops you falling over.

The sensing is done by these canals. Each has little hairs called scilli (pronounced “silly”) connected to nerve endings lining them. There’s also a drop of fluid in each canal which stays at the lowest point in the semicircle courtesy of gravity. As your head moves, the fluid moves to the new lowest point and stimulates the scilli which send a signal to your brain. As there are 3 canals, aligned in the 3 axes, it covers off any movement in any direction. This is all part of your automatic nervous system so happens subconsciously, no effort required on your part, like breathing or dropping something hot. It can be overridden but takes real effort and conscious thought.

Normally the eyes see the movement and send that message to your brain which says “epic, 2 bits of data and they match, hey, legs, do such and such or this twat is gonna face plant”.

The problem is if your eyes don’t send the matching signal, you’re brain goes “FFS, 2 bits of data and they don’t match, no idea really so I’ll just do nothing and you two can argue amongst yourselves”. If the eyes can’t see, you’re in cloud, you’re stuck with a small instrument rather than a humongous horizon and to make matters worse, after a while, you’re ears will lie to you and your brain really does throw a strop. Congratulations, you have The Leans.

Your ears lie because once the fluid has moved, if you keep your head still, whilst staring at an instrument for example, the fluid settles and your brain interprets this as a “new normal”, in other words it thinks the sensed position of the fluid is vertical and resets its reference. If you now move again it interprets this as a move from the vertical rather than a move from the actual position of your head.

You can kind of get the idea if you sit in a moving car with your eyes shut. Disclaimer: This is probably best done when not actually driving the car. On a straight road at constant speed, put your chin on your chest. Wait 30 seconds or so and flick your head upright. You may well interpret this as the car accelerating. Think about it. Your head has moved back as it would do if the car accelerated.

Another way to do it is sit in a swivel chair with your eyes shut and keep your head still. Get someone to spin the chair slowly but steadily. Your ears will detect the movement and your brain correctly interpret it but after a while, 30 seconds or so, the constant rotation will be interpreted as a steady state. If you then stop the rotation, your brain will interpret this as the start of a rotation in the opposite direction. I’ve seen people actually fall off chairs when I’ve demonstrated this.

It’s not just your ears that fool you, body position or more accurately, where you feel body position. This is the somatogravic bit. If you think about it, if you’re sat down, increased pressure on your back can be achieved by either accelerating the chair forward, as in a car or aircraft on the take off run, or by tilting the chair back. If your eyes tell you which is the case, it’s no hassle, if they don’t, your brain can’t work out which it is so coming full circle, a high nose attitude in an aircraft can be interpreted either correctly as a potentially dangerous nose up or incorrectly as a benign level acceleration.

Similarly, because aircraft turn by banking, dropping a wing, rather than “skidding“ round like a car an acceleration upwards is sensed because centrifugal force pushes your arse outwards from the turn and into the seat, as it would if you accelerated vertically upwards.

You are now double fecked because this too is reassessed by your brain as a “new normal” if you hold that unaccelerated position for a period of time. Hold a steady banked turn to the right for a while, such as in Holding Pattern where each turn on the racetrack pattern takes 1 minute, and when you return to wings level your brain interprets this as a turn to the left.

I think that’s enough for today but hopefully you can see that your body is a devious bastard, wholly unsuited to flying aeroplanes and why most normal people aren’t keen on flying on instruments as it requires serious effort.

I‘m off for a lie down before I fall down.
 
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Went camping this weekend and stayed at a site in Standlake. Lots of traffic as it’s more or less on the flight path to BZ so C17s and a Voyager... 4am Friday 4 of the buggers went over, one being so loud I thought it was landing in my camper until the noticeable pitch of thrust was applied to the engines...couldn’t tell you what it or they were as I wasn’t getting out of my pit.

Friday daytime I heard a screeching, looked up and I’m almost sure I spotted a U2 doing a turn of 90 degrees whilst on the approach and then away. May be a Fairford visitor that took the wrong turn?

Lincoln Farm or Hardwyke Park?

I stayed at Lincoln Farm a few times and have sat outside the tent watching the comings and goings to the amusement of the wife & kids
 

Oops

War Hero
You’d have thought so! However, there’s a phenomenon known as “The Leans”. which confuses Somatgravic Sensation (today’s first clever word, there will be more). It can also cause motion sickness and is essentially a disconnect in your brain between what your eyes are seeing and what you’re body (ears, amongst other bits, believe it or not) is telling you about which way is up. That’s why motion sickness is often relieved by seeing the horizon moving, your brain can connect the motion being felt with the motion being seen.

The (IIRC) Dutch Navy came up with a neat gadget to help guys in windowless compartments on ships; it’s essentially a bedside light with a horizontal slit cut in the shade that shines out a line of light onto the walls replicating the horizon. It’s mounted on a gyroscopically stabilised platform to keep it horizontal so you see a truly horizontal line on the wall, no matter what the wall is doing and what you are feeling.

In aircraft we have an Artificial Horizon, more commonly called an Attitude Indicator. This shows you where you are in relation to the horizon when you can’t see it (rather than the likelihood of the pilot telling you to feck off or give you a kiss) such as in cloud or at night over the sea, as in the AF crash.

Problem is, our bodies are astonishingly badly designed for flying as unlike birds and insects etc, we’ve not developed over millions of years of evolution to design out all our failings. One failing is the argument that goes on between your inner ear and other bits and your eyes reading the instruments, the instrument is usually right although to be fair, in the AF crash they were getting dud info but they could easily have used other instruments and cues such as the control positions to sort themselves out.

Balance in your inner ear is sorted by 3 “semi circular canals“ in each ear. They are set up in the 3 axes, up/down, left/right/, forward/back and use vertical and no movement as a reference or datum. They sense any deviation from that reference and tell your brain at which point, unless you’re pissed and/or flying an aircraft, your brain makes commands to the rest of your body to do something that stops you falling over.

The sensing is done by these canals. Each has little hairs called scilli (pronounced “silly”) connected to nerve endings lining them. There’s also a drop of fluid in each canal which stays at the lowest point in the semicircle courtesy of gravity. As your head moves, the fluid moves to the new lowest point and stimulates the scilli which send a signal to your brain. As there are 3 canals, aligned in the 3 axes, it covers off any movement in any direction. This is all part of your automatic nervous system so happens subconsciously, no effort required on your part, like breathing or dropping something hot. It can be overridden but takes real effort and conscious thought.

Normally the eyes see the movement and send that message to your brain which says “epic, 2 bits of data and they match, hey, legs, do such and such or this twat is gonna face plant”.

The problem is if your eyes don’t send the matching signal, you’re brain goes “FFS, 2 bits of data and they don’t match, no idea really so I’ll just do nothing and you two can argue amongst yourselves”. If the eyes can’t see, you’re in cloud, you’re stuck with a small instrument rather than a humongous horizon and to make matters worse, after a while, you’re ears will lie to you and your brain really does throw a strop. Congratulations, you have The Leans.

Your ears lie because once the fluid has moved, if you keep your head still, whilst staring at an instrument for example, the fluid settles and your brain interprets this as a “new normal”, in other words it thinks the sensed position of the fluid is vertical and resets its reference. If you now move again it interprets this as a move from the vertical rather than a move from the actual position of your head.

You can kind of get the idea if you sit in a moving car with your eyes shut. Disclaimer: This is probably best done when not actually driving the car. On a straight road at constant speed, put your chin on your chest. Wait 30 seconds or so and flick your head upright. You may well interpret this as the car accelerating. Think about it. Your head has moved back as it would do if the car accelerated.

Another way to do it is sit in a swivel chair with your eyes shut and keep your head still. Get someone to spin the chair slowly but steadily. Your ears will detect the movement and your brain correctly interpret it but after a while, 30 seconds or so, the constant rotation will be interpreted as a steady state. If you then stop the rotation, your brain will interpret this as the start of a rotation in the opposite direction. I’ve seen people actually fall off chairs when I’ve demonstrated this.

It’s not just your ears that fool you, body position or more accurately, where you feel body position. This is the somatogravic bit. If you think about it, if you’re sat down, increased pressure on your back can be achieved by either accelerating the chair forward, as in a car or aircraft on the take off run, or by tilting the chair back. If your eyes tell you which is the case, it’s no hassle, if they don’t, your brain can’t work out which it is so coming full circle, a high nose attitude in an aircraft can be interpreted either correctly as a potentially dangerous nose up or incorrectly as a benign level acceleration.

Similarly, because aircraft turn by banking, dropping a wing, rather than “skidding“ round like a car an acceleration upwards is sensed because centrifugal force pushes your arse outwards from the turn and into the seat, as it would if you accelerated vertically upwards.

You are now double fecked because this too is reassessed by your brain as a “new normal” if you hold that unaccelerated position for a period of time. Hold a steady banked turn to the right for a while, such as in Holding Pattern where each turn on the racetrack pattern takes 1 minute, and when you return to wings level your brain interprets this as a turn to the left.

I think that’s enough for today but hopefully you can see that your body is a devious bastard, wholly unsuited to flying aeroplanes and why most normal people aren’t keen on flying on instruments as it requires serious effort.

I‘m off for a lie down before I fall down.

Welcome to my feckin World.


At last summat I actually know about (not cos I'm an eminent Neurosurgeon, or neurologist, I just listen when they're lecturing me which bit they're gonna interfere with next)
Now the batty Neuro opthalmologist talks really fascinating sh*t.....
( I used to watch planes flying backwards whilst taking off out of Lpl, from the Hozzy window!!)
It gets to summat when they start throwing away lumps of your cervical spine to try and attain 'level flight'

Eta.
Re. the Brain and sensory stuff...

It's called 'Sensory gating'...
Your brain is always straining to find 'the new normal' sometimes the filters go a bit awry (head injury, disease,etc.)and let some stuff through that 'computer should say 'no' to.'

Flying on instruments in real life takes some serious getting used to nevermind in the dark at 30000ft in a thunderstorm.
I've not flown since my accident in '14 funnily enough one of the cocktail of drugs they've experimented with are altitude sickness meds....
They've worked, the road from the farm rises 60ft in the first mile then drops down again....
I'm motion sick when we hit level, 9 times out of 10.
Eyes open, above 30 mph and the World turns to sh*t anyway.

Computer fed Pitot tubes and instrument horizons.....

I'd sh*t 'em....

Eta.
Should the worst happen @Toastie, there's definitely an opening explaining complex stuff in an understandable fashion in the Neurological community.......
You wouldn't believe how many brilliant neuroscientists can't speak in relatable sentences.
 

BlipDriver

Swinger
You’d have thought so! However, there’s a phenomenon known as “The Leans”. which confuses Somatgravic Sensation (today’s first clever word, there will be more). It can also cause motion sickness and is essentially a disconnect in your brain between what your eyes are seeing and what you’re body (ears, amongst other bits, believe it or not) is telling you about which way is up. That’s why motion sickness is often relieved by seeing the horizon moving, your brain can connect the motion being felt with the motion being seen.

The (IIRC) Dutch Navy came up with a neat gadget to help guys in windowless compartments on ships; it’s essentially a bedside light with a horizontal slit cut in the shade that shines out a line of light onto the walls replicating the horizon. It’s mounted on a gyroscopically stabilised platform to keep it horizontal so you see a truly horizontal line on the wall, no matter what the wall is doing and what you are feeling.

In aircraft we have an Artificial Horizon, more commonly called an Attitude Indicator. This shows you where you are in relation to the horizon when you can’t see it (rather than the likelihood of the pilot telling you to feck off or give you a kiss) such as in cloud or at night over the sea, as in the AF crash.

Problem is, our bodies are astonishingly badly designed for flying as unlike birds and insects etc, we’ve not developed over millions of years of evolution to design out all our failings. One failing is the argument that goes on between your inner ear and other bits and your eyes reading the instruments, the instrument is usually right although to be fair, in the AF crash they were getting dud info but they could easily have used other instruments and cues such as the control positions to sort themselves out.

Balance in your inner ear is sorted by 3 “semi circular canals“ in each ear. They are set up in the 3 axes, up/down, left/right/, forward/back and use vertical and no movement as a reference or datum. They sense any deviation from that reference and tell your brain at which point, unless you’re pissed and/or flying an aircraft, your brain makes commands to the rest of your body to do something that stops you falling over.

The sensing is done by these canals. Each has little hairs called scilli (pronounced “silly”) connected to nerve endings lining them. There’s also a drop of fluid in each canal which stays at the lowest point in the semicircle courtesy of gravity. As your head moves, the fluid moves to the new lowest point and stimulates the scilli which send a signal to your brain. As there are 3 canals, aligned in the 3 axes, it covers off any movement in any direction. This is all part of your automatic nervous system so happens subconsciously, no effort required on your part, like breathing or dropping something hot. It can be overridden but takes real effort and conscious thought.

Normally the eyes see the movement and send that message to your brain which says “epic, 2 bits of data and they match, hey, legs, do such and such or this twat is gonna face plant”.

The problem is if your eyes don’t send the matching signal, you’re brain goes “FFS, 2 bits of data and they don’t match, no idea really so I’ll just do nothing and you two can argue amongst yourselves”. If the eyes can’t see, you’re in cloud, you’re stuck with a small instrument rather than a humongous horizon and to make matters worse, after a while, you’re ears will lie to you and your brain really does throw a strop. Congratulations, you have The Leans.

Your ears lie because once the fluid has moved, if you keep your head still, whilst staring at an instrument for example, the fluid settles and your brain interprets this as a “new normal”, in other words it thinks the sensed position of the fluid is vertical and resets its reference. If you now move again it interprets this as a move from the vertical rather than a move from the actual position of your head.

You can kind of get the idea if you sit in a moving car with your eyes shut. Disclaimer: This is probably best done when not actually driving the car. On a straight road at constant speed, put your chin on your chest. Wait 30 seconds or so and flick your head upright. You may well interpret this as the car accelerating. Think about it. Your head has moved back as it would do if the car accelerated.

Another way to do it is sit in a swivel chair with your eyes shut and keep your head still. Get someone to spin the chair slowly but steadily. Your ears will detect the movement and your brain correctly interpret it but after a while, 30 seconds or so, the constant rotation will be interpreted as a steady state. If you then stop the rotation, your brain will interpret this as the start of a rotation in the opposite direction. I’ve seen people actually fall off chairs when I’ve demonstrated this.

It’s not just your ears that fool you, body position or more accurately, where you feel body position. This is the somatogravic bit. If you think about it, if you’re sat down, increased pressure on your back can be achieved by either accelerating the chair forward, as in a car or aircraft on the take off run, or by tilting the chair back. If your eyes tell you which is the case, it’s no hassle, if they don’t, your brain can’t work out which it is so coming full circle, a high nose attitude in an aircraft can be interpreted either correctly as a potentially dangerous nose up or incorrectly as a benign level acceleration.

Similarly, because aircraft turn by banking, dropping a wing, rather than “skidding“ round like a car an acceleration upwards is sensed because centrifugal force pushes your arse outwards from the turn and into the seat, as it would if you accelerated vertically upwards.

You are now double fecked because this too is reassessed by your brain as a “new normal” if you hold that unaccelerated position for a period of time. Hold a steady banked turn to the right for a while, such as in Holding Pattern where each turn on the racetrack pattern takes 1 minute, and when you return to wings level your brain interprets this as a turn to the left.

I think that’s enough for today but hopefully you can see that your body is a devious bastard, wholly unsuited to flying aeroplanes and why most normal people aren’t keen on flying on instruments as it requires serious effort.

I‘m off for a lie down before I fall down.
In my best Crocodile Dundee "that's an answer". Why do I suspect that I've found something that you researched because no-one else in your sphere knew anything about it?
 
1600783701271.png

Someone must have got a bit bored last night, at it for well over an hour and a half, could see the ac quite clearly.
 
Might be something to do with stuff on Salisbury Plain?
Nah! . . . The pilot was waiting/trying to see, who - and, for how long - "someone" visited his wife, while he was "at work" !!
 
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In my best Crocodile Dundee "that's an answer". Why do I suspect that I've found something that you researched because no-one else in your sphere knew anything about it?

Not really. Human performance and Limitations (HPL) came into all pilot syllabi in the early 90s after it was realised that people were killing themselves in preventable accidents. I have been teaching the various syllabi for 29 years; from bored, rich housewives Private Pilots Licence stuff through professional training and on to delivering to my peers in classrooms and simulators as well as writing material for courses and freelance work.

You pick stuff up along the way!

Most guys would have a working knowledge of it all, I just take it up a notch or two because to teach effectively you need an in depth background knowledge to understand what and why you are teaching rather than just being one page ahead of the students in the book.

Thank you anyway!
 

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