Fleet Management & Getting rid of all our AFV's into it

Discussion in 'Tanks, planes & ships' started by MrBane, Sep 6, 2011.

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  1. MrBane

    MrBane LE Moderator Reviewer Reviews Editor

    This may be the wrong board, but hey-ho, it said 'Tanks' on the door.

    So working away on some wagons today, and as usual it's a nightmare. A complete and utter nightmare.

    Why? Because they break a lot.

    Now I recall going on exercise to Salisbury and going down to a place on the area, a rather large warehouse hangar affair, where I could sign for some LR's with full fit Bowman. They came ready to go, in very good condition. I signed for them, took them out and brought them back in more or less the same condition.

    Why the hell aren't we doing this with all our vehicles?

    Lets take the decrepit CVR(T) range.

    Why don't we put them all into this system but retain two vehicle types per Regiment. These can then be used the same way the ones in Bovington are - Stripped, messed with, put back together. Used for towing, driver training, etcetc.

    It doesn't matter you only have what, maybe six vehicles in a whole Regiment, the Regiment can allocate their use to Squadrons, a week at a time. A week is ample enough time to fit in what you need to do.

    Remember, this stuff is only ultimately for camp use.

    When you go on ex or gun camp you just sign some out and get them delivered by low-loaders to CMR or take them straight out the hangar if on the plains.

    So you're going to make a massive saving straight away on parts, spares and maintenance.

    I see our metal skip fill daily with crap that was wrongly ordered and we were told "Just skip it" even though it's brand new.
    I see piles of stuff in cages and hangars everywhere which is doing nothing and is just wasting space and the money they cost.
    I see daily training being put aside because of constant niggling jobs that need working on and by the time you've fixed that something else is broken.

    There is no logical argument for not using this Fleet Management system (If that's what it's called, the thing I'm referring to. I don't think it is mind.).

    The transport unit for tanks, apparently there's only one in the UK. Well if we had all our AFV's bar the training ones at Regiments at a central location then they could be based there and probably cope with the demand instead of having to get civvie companies to ferry stuff about at a ridiculous cost.

    I think it's a great idea. I've spent too many hundreds of hours fixing vehicles instead of training and furthering my skills, and don't say fixing them is furthering your skills, there's a limit to how many times you can do the same damn job before you stop getting any benefit from it.

    Bah, what a crap day at work.
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  2. With regards to CR2s from what i've seen Fleet Management is all spin, I started in 1 RTR in 2004 and A Sqn were given a number of ex QRL wagons to use for Exercise Aurora in the States, involving a beach landing. I got a 2 yr posting to 2 RTR in 2008, to Egypt Sqn, the wagons we received were ex QRL ones and included in that number were the ones which had been used by A sqn 1RTR. They had come from fleet management and we had to check them over etc, on inspection of the pack it was apparent that the filters hadn't been changed since they were serviced by A Sqn in 2004, meaning that no servicing of the pack had been carried out at all for four years, which as far as i am aware, goes against what Fleet Management is all about.And the number of CES checks we had to carry out was rediculous. :)
  3. Eh? We've been on the receiving end of Whole Fleet Management fo nearly ten years in the QOY. It seems to work like this:

    1 - Regiment receives training allocation of CVRT (3 or 4 Scimitar, 1 Spartan, 1 Sultan and 1 Samson per squadron), which arrive in rag order;

    2 - Squadrons spend the next year or two operating them during which time we deal with all the maintenance issues and keep them in as good order as is possible with minimal maintenance time (MTDs are precious these days and like you we've got better things to spend our time on),

    3 - They are eventually taken away and replaced by another batch in rag order.
  4. Sign for them, drive half a mile, then start fighting all those oil leaks from dry seals. WFM is a nightmare yet to happen. There has never been an exercise to break out all the kit and see if it works.

    The equipment you get issued for trg purposes has probably just been handed in by another mob the week before, or you take it over direct from them.

    The skills fade is the real killer. Plus the lack of pride in "Our wagon."
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  5. Same as the vehicles in BATUS, at the end of the BG a four day turn around taking a real piece of shit off the cavalry, then with a bit of elbow grease and pride producing a vehicle that will be handed over at the end of the BG in a lot better nick than was received. The "our wagon" principle still exists in proper regiments.
  6. How long ago are you referring? When I was there 2006-2008, vehicles left the pan in the best possible condition and when returned were returned to the same condition before being accepted back. At the end of a Med Man lads were still working on the vehicles well into the night.

    Just a shame people didn't treat their ammo with the same care.
  7. Goatman

    Goatman LE Book Reviewer

    .......and this topic was aired to death in 2003 ! Ah how time flies in the timewarp that is Arrse - here y'go:http://www.arrse.co.uk/weapons-equipment-rations/1323-whole-fleet-management-wfm-good-bad.html

    I was in the IPT which dealt with it and moved on in 2006, shortly before they all got kicked out of Andover and exiled to the Outer Hell that is Abbey Wood. No axe to grind as to whether it works in practice or not - just mildly astonished that 8 years later it is still being debated as a hot topic

    Mind you, I keep seeing threads started by people who want UKFOR to buy Colt Industries 40 year old assault rifles too......

    as above, I'm now well out of date on current WFM practice - but the theory as it was basically meant that when a vehicle was kept in Controlled Humidity Environment either in Ashchurch or Monchengladbach TFSUs then , no - it wouldn't have had any routine servicing - because the whole point was that the Army was spending an inordinate amount of time conducting routine spares changes on vehicles which simply hadn't done any mileage since the last change.

    In a domestic scenario it is like putting your brand new Mercedes in a dark shed with zero moisture in the air for four years - but nonetheless doing an oil change and putting new tyres on it EVERY year - because that's what the Service Manual says.......

    ( so why were you surprised that the Air filter hadn't been changed ? In theory, the vehicle hadn't even been started up while it was in storeage..... )
  8. Dinger, 13 X BG from Tpr to QM, from first BG to last CH BG, and beyond. Ammo?
  9. MrBane

    MrBane LE Moderator Reviewer Reviews Editor

    Okay, I'll tell you what, it's not Fleet Management I'm talking about. I wasn't sure what it's called but it's obviously not FM.

    Vehicles are held in a depot somewhere, taking the SP one it's on the Plains, and you go in and sign for what vehicles you need for the exercise, roll them out, use them, bring them back rolled back and the civvies then get them up to immaculate standard again.

    What the hell is the place called?

    That's what I'm talking about. Not this bouncing vehicles around units and Regiments.

  10. That'll be the LTF(W) - Land Training Fleet (Warminster):
    Ministry of Defence | About Defence | What we do | Equipment and Logistics | WFM | Whole Fleet Management Programme Management Office (WFM PMO)

    I believe it comes under WFM, but is obviously separate to the Controlled Humidity Environment (CHE) sheds used to store the operational fleet.
  11. MrBane

    MrBane LE Moderator Reviewer Reviews Editor

    That's the bugger.

    Brilliant system. I've used it several times and have no complaints. If we got rid of everything into it it'd free up more time for core training or other fun stuff and less time fixing shitty faults on vehicles that just occur for no rational reason.
  12. Hopefully you are not from the 'proper regiment' who borrowed a Spartan from us four years ago to use on a D and M course, and returned it with one track on back-to-front and OMD90 in the brake reservoirs.

    I take it that you mean the faults that occur for reasons other than 'use' or 'lack of use'.
  13. Doesn't WFM, just mean a lot of milage is put on a small number of vehicles? These then will have more breakdowns? and no replacements available?
  14. TM-not guilty.

  15. MrBane, you need a larger amount of unit holdings to deal with raat task jiff jobs.

    I've used the CT1 fleet from DSG, and speaking as an FR regt tiffy vehicles, it has it's pro's and cons. Namely vehicle condition on handover (and the time needed to rectify it), often you will be expected to sign for the kit on day 1 of your exercise/firing camp. This isn't ideal as you won't get visibility of gun docs etc beforehand. Half of the time the usages will be incorrect on JAMES, which throws your servicing out of whack when you come to hand the kit back. You will have to carry out a data cut for your JUDs after accepting the vehicles on JAMES which is a drama due to the time that it takes to get right and further problems if you're using several layers of parent-child synchronisation. The crews tend to lose the entire CES during the exercise but the vehicles are expected back with CESs complete. This leads to the unit holdings vehicle's CESs being raped to make up the shortfall. As previously mentioned, expect a lot of oil leaks from kit which has been unused for a long time due to seals drying up.

    Obviously we try to plan ahead to avoid these issues but when some civvy in DSG assures you that they're going to take the vehicles out for a x-country road test and then don't, when you come to collect them what can you do? You can complain about it but it doesn't change the fact that you either take them or don't achieve you training objectives.

    If you're stores are telling you to skip large amounts of new veh spares then you need to raise it with the RQ(T), or speak to somebody who will. The kit can and should be backloaded.

    I agree CVR(T) is not the most reliable bit of kit but a lot of issues are caused by ******* either cannabalising parts, shite fault reporting or damage through incompetence. Also, saying a crew fitted item is awaiting spares and writing it in your demand book won't make it magically appear. You need to take said demand to the store and then pick up the part at a later date.

    A lot of dramas I see on camp as far as vehicle condition are concerned, are caused by lack of interest within the sqn from the 2i/c down to the NCOs supervising the Toms.
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