First post from US - UK SA80 rifle qual?????

Hello from across the pond. I found this site looking for SA80 rifle qualification standards for the British Army. I've been out since '98 and had 2 years in the National Guard and 6 years Active Duty.

I'm looking for specifics, target size, range, number of rounds, score for qualification, expert, etc.

Here, with the M16A2, we shoot on a pop-up target range with targets from 50 to 300 meters, after zeroing on a 25m range. The targets are 19.5"x40" E silhouettes or "Ivans" with the 50m targets being only a "head and shoulders" targets. They pop-up in singles or in pairs with the closer targets being presented for shorter time periods than the longer range ones. We shoot 20 rounds from the prone supported (foxhole) firing position (using sandbags), and 20 rounds from the prone unsupported position.

5 targets are at 50m, 9 at 100m, 10 at 150m, 8 at 200m, 5 at 250m, and 3 at 300m. The soldier must hit 23 to qualify as Marksman, anything less and you're a bolo/no-go (US Army slang). 23-29 is marksman, 30-35 is Sharpshooter and 36-40 is Expert.

This is US Army style qualification and the Marine Corps version is somewhat different but not dramatically, although their initial rifle training is much more in-depth than the US Army version.

Any info would be great, the more specific the better.

Somewhere in North Georgia, USA
I cant remember the exact exposures for the targets, But i believe it was had to get 32 out of 60 to get a bog standard pass. Will have to dig around some more for the exact Quals,
Perhaps Some one who is range qualified can help more.
Well as far as I can remember, and I won't be too specific it goes/went something like this. It was called the Annual Personal Weapon Test and mandatory for the Infantry/Marines/SAS , other arms had their own version. The whole shoot required 65 rds and a pass was 49 and 60 scored Marksman, no other grades except a fail. Targets used were the Fig.11 (18ins x 45ins) and fig.12 (18 x 22ins) and the full size Running Man for the Moving Tgt. shoot. Ranges were 300,200,100 but the Fig 12 was only used at 100m. There were several phases which represented different stages of a Battle,e.g. Defence, Encounter battle, Advance to contact. All the usual fire positions were employed, prone supported and unsupported, kneeling, squatting/sitting, and of course Standing. Snap shooting was testied at 4 sec exposures (200/100m) as well as deliberate at 300m on 6sec. exposures and all targets were fall when hit.

It was quite realistic and testing as you found yourself runniing forward to the firing point to adopt the required position and engae the targets within the exposure time. The final "Advance to Contact" had you walking down the range from 300 to 50m engaging targets as they appeared There was also separate night shoot of 10rds at "The limit of night visibility" which was generally regarded as s complete waste fo time and ammo, you tended to either hit them all ('cos you could see) or miss them all (cos you couldn't). All in all though I always thought it an excellent shoot and if you could consistently pass (never mind get marksman) you were a pretty competent battle shot. This was something which took me about 6years to achieve!! Hope you found it interesting though I'm sure I'll be corrected by somenoe with access to the "Shoot to Kill" pamphlet. What do you think?
Thanks. It sounds a lot more in-depth than what we do here. More realistic. Hopefully we can get the manual info before too long. Congrats on the Marksman rating.

We got to do what was called the "combat infantry" APWT on summer camp last year (prior to live field firing)

Same as standard APWT except also a 400m shoot, 15rnds at 5 exposures. ALL exposures must be hit (fall when hit). And you had to pass.
Operator, one assumes you are not a infantryman if you've never heard of APWT (CI) - clearly used to APWT (OA&S).

jdsr, all Phase 2 infantry recruits have to pass the APWT(CI) in order to complete the course - one of the few 'critical' tests that absolutely has to be met. The marksman qualification only lasts a year and the soldier is entitled to wear crossed rifles on his jacket wrist in No2 Dress.

The APWT(CI) is completed using the SUSAT and the APWT (OA&S) is completed using the Iron Sight. Naturally the LSW shoot (the Annual Presonal Weapon Assessment - APWA) uses the SUSAT.
jdsr said:
Keep the information coming guys. Does anyone have access to the PAM?

'Training the Battle Shot' 1996. Not sure how much it's been amended since then. Unfortunately, I haven't got time tonight to go through it all. It's a tome. Why do you want to know?
Army Operational Shooting Policy (AOSP) Volume 1 - Personal Weapons is the current Pam. It is a Restricted doc, so not really suitable for reproduction here.

APWT(CI) is basically 90 rounds at 100, 200 300, and 400m from all positions and including phases in respirator and gloves, and practices where you have to move into or change your fire position as part of the test. Mag changes and stoppages must be carried out within the test (less of a problem withe A2). You must pass at each range, 100m being an 80% pass mark, then 70%, 60% etc. There is also a night shooting phase. All this qualifies you to go onto serious shooting. :D

Targets are Figure 12s (small charging WW2 US soldiers) or Figure 11 (tall charging WW2 US soldiers). Don't ask me why, perhaps they are meant to look like Ruskies :roll:
Not trying to uncover state secrets, just comparing US to UK marksmanship and how to improve shooter skill. I know it's a different firearms climate over there vs over here but there's no skullduggery, just looking to improve battle skill.

Thanks for the help.
New APWT for all disciplines is included in Training the Battle shot - Vol 1 Personel Weapons 2005. Respirator and LNV shoots gone and replaced with suppression. Your Trg Wing should have a copy.


In 84 we took our APWT on a Gallery range somewhere in Germany and a US platoon was attached. Talk about warry all they were missing was body armour. However not one of them could hit the target beyond 100 yards with the M16 A1 and we even put up a 600 yard screen for them to rezero on at 100. Piss poor results. They claimed to be office staff, but even our company clerk managed a marksman with the SLR which none of the yanks would fire twice, "Gee that Hurts!" Girls.
If this had been a wooden etr and they were using light 556 ammo then we could understand but even when they marked theirown targets it was really poor.
I do remember not doing the respirator phase on that day, possibly as the CSM was missing thank feck!
I've no recollection of why the yanks were attached but us and the Gordons were the Inf for 6 Airmobile the and it may have been an exchange, we'd had some Frog anti tanks that year as well. I suppose it would have been a fair exchange if we'd sent a rear party under 18 platoon cooks and bottle washers canteen comando platoon in exchange for those fine US Servicegirls. And whats with dribbling tobbacco get a hygenic habit you Hillbillies!
Empire said:
New APWT for all disciplines is included in Training the Battle shot - Vol 1 Personel Weapons 2005. Respirator and LNV shoots gone and replaced with suppression. Your Trg Wing should have a copy.
Ah, that'll be the thing the CSM made me sign for as the amended pamphlet! I'd better read it before we hit the ranges again :oops:
On a slight tangent I read a good book by a US Army Col Dave Grossman called ""On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society. Can't remember where I got the recomendation from, may well be on the Staff College reading list. Anyway.....

One of the areas that it looks at is theway in which Soldiers are taught to shoot and how likely it is that they will. Example if you learn to shoot by firing at a fixed bullseye type target going forward and examing your grouping when faced with a battlefield scenario you have to apply a different mental model to get you to shoot.

When you learn to shoot at man shaped targets that suddenly appear and fall when you hit them it hits your psycho buttons of Stimulus (target) - Response (fire) - Reward (target falls). It's classic Pavlovian conditioning.

When on the battlefied a target appears without thinking too much you engage with the stimulus immediatley with the response and fire. I'd recommend the book strongly.

This may explain why I'm such a loon when paintballing..
On-Killing makes a lot of sense. Their were studies done on combat troops from WWII on that showed only a small portion of troops actually shot to kill in combat. Some just shot to blend in with everyone else and were either trying not to kill anyone or were too busy trying to avoid being shot.


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