First aid on First Capital connect trains

Discussion in 'The Intelligence Cell' started by Poppy, Sep 23, 2010.

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  1. Train Staff Not Allowed To Give Medical Help To Passengers - Londonist

    "Train Staff Not Allowed To Give Medical Help To Passengers

    If you're feeling at all unwell don't travel by First Capital Connect, or make sure there's a qualified first aider in your carriage. After a man collapsed at St Alban's station a few weeks ago and FCC staff said they didn't have first aid training, witness Rachel Hughes has been told by the TOC that some staff did have the necessary skills - of course they do, anyone's who's worked anywhere knows companies have an obligation to train some first aiders - but at FCC, that training does not allow staff to treat passengers.

    This is a swingeing reading of the law. Health and Safety (First-Aid) Regulations 1981 (oh yeah, we're getting into legislation now) says companies only have to make provision for their employees. So FCC is legally in the right. Morally however... HSE guidance "strongly recommends that non-employees are included in an assessment of first-aid needs and that provision is made"

    as someone who is a first aider at work I find this very odd - I would always assist anyone when necessary, whether a colleague or a visitor to my building or just some random stranger on the street - but if a train company is telling staff not to help customers I really do give up hope for common sense!!!
  2. Ravers

    Ravers LE Reviewer Book Reviewer

    That would explain why a few months ago when a bloke collapsed on top of me and started having an epileptic fit in the ticket queue at Euston, the useless staff just stood around watching. I administered first aid with another passer by. We even had to prompt the station staff to call for help as they stood around open jawed and gormless. Anyone who has been to the ticket gate at platforms 8 - 12 will know that at any one time, there are around 4 or 5 members of staff there, not one of them reacted to the situation.

    The thing that fucked me off most was that I was in the middle of buying a ticket when the bloke collapsed and the bird behind the counter started nagging me about whether I still wanted the ticket or not. I was on one knee, in the middle of stopping some poor **** swallowing his own tongue FFS!

    ''Do you want the ticket or not? I haven't got all day and there are other people waiting.''
  3. Shouldn't blame the staff. It's probably a disciplinary offence to help someone. (seriously)

    The companies that enforce this sort of thing are treading very carefully around what is essentially a legal minefield.

    It opens them up (potentially) for a claim of 'trespass against the person' - known to you and I as assault and battery.

    That said there is an (as yet untested) piece of legislation which may be able to protect the would-be rescuer, in the form of the Mental Health Act 2005 (which came into force in 2007) but that only gives protection to said rescuer if the rescuee in question was conscious.

    Whilst there have been (to my knowledge) no cases testing any of this, companies are scared shitless in this day of sueing the pants off everyone, especially with the new corporate manslaughter stuff that came in with the Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007.
    That, my friends, is why they won't help. They don't want to lose their jobs. Not saying it's right, but it's not all on the staff.
  4. as a class 1 cmt, i was agast to be told, i had to attend st john first aid at work course, due to the fact i work at a rtc, and that on selection weekends, civys, and not sut's are in attendence..... legislation and law regarding h&s in the work place................
  5. Did you get his wallet?

    Is the any penalty for trying to give first aid and getting it wrong (causing an injury) in the UK?
  6. med neg, see you in church. p.s bring your chq book........................................................................
  7. During my training as a first-aider at my workplace I was told in no uncertain terms that I was there for the the needs of the company's employees and NOT for any customer who chose to collapse/choke/whatever on the company's premises. It was a lot to do with the company's insurance plus, and as has already been mentioned, something to do with being left open to an assault charge if, for example, applying cardiac massage to an unconcious and buxom 18-year-old wench without her prior consent. That said the company took the line that should a customer require first aid, it was OK to respond providing we asked the patient if we had their permission to provide assistance. If they said 'No' we were to stand back and let them bleed/choke/whatever to death.
  8. tut tut get thee on a first aid course.....stand back, clear space and let em thrash is the procedure these days m'duck!
  9. Their defibs must be for decoration then. Twice I have answered a call over the tannoy at a station for a medical person, train staff had called an ambulance but beyond that they didn't seem to know what to do and the situations were minor. Don't know what they would do in a major situation. Haven't heard how they did on 7/7 but I have heard that the train drivers did well leading people to safety

  10. What an inconsiderate swine!!!

    You should be ashamed, holding the queue up like that.
  11. AFAIK the rules are you cannot be prosecuted unless:

    * You leave the casualty after you start giving first aid (unless you do so to prevent yourself from being injured)
    * You are grossly negligent or try and do something beyond your training, and get it wrong.

    I would assume that any incident involving a not-breathing casualty would be non-prosecuatable as well considering you can't exactly make them worse.
  12. A person, whether a health care professional or a member of the lay public who witnesses a situation on the street where resuscitation might be required is under no obligation to assist provided the situation was not caused by him. However, if that person does choose voluntarily to intervene to render assistance he will assume a duty of care towards the individual concerned.

    Whether intervening under a positive duty of care or under an assumed duty of care, a person who attempts resuscitation will only be legally liable if the intervention leaves a casualty in a worse position than he would have been in had no action been taken at all. It is difficult in the circumstances under consideration to see how a rescuers intervention could leave a casualty worse off since in the case of cardio-pulmonary arrest a victim would, without immediate resuscitation, certainly otherwise die.

    source Claim against first aider - First Aid Cafe Forum - Page 1

    Basically, if they end up worse off than they were before you helped then they COULD try to sue you, but I believe they'd have to prove either that you attempted first aid beyond your training, or that you knowingly did something you KNEW could cause harm.

    The old chestnut about breaking ribs during CPR is a big favourite.
  13. I can think of a few instances where acting in good faith can go tits up, Removing a crash helmet because you think the bloke is choking/isnt breathing, Giving chest compressions to a large brested lady (or young female child) then getting accused of touching them up.
    I suppose it depends on the situation, the victim might be ginger and the kindest thing to do is let them die quietly.
  14. helping as train driver is a tad different. If in between stations and a pass-comm is activated for a medical emergency, we'd get in touch with the box and get them to arrange an ambulance to meet us at the next station. This is the best way, as trying to aid a person in the middle of nowhere is not good!

    I do know of at least one of our drivers, who saved a person's life on the platform (he had to secure his cab 1st) and was highly commended by the company!...Then again, this is FCC you're talking about. :wink:
  15. Similar experiences abound on the Underground, though the amount of first aiders has been reduced drastically over the past ten or so years as managers are a tad reluctant to send them , first aiders, for requalification. Lots of industries now do the one day First Aid in the Workplace, it's cheaper. You really should only give first aid to workmates, anything else can be a bit risky. Having said that if any poor bugger collapsed at my feet I'd have a good go, having a fair amount of knowledge and experience. Though why railway companies should be singled out I don't know. What if you're passing Joes Burger Stall and you collapse, would Joe get slated for not assisting you? :santa: