Firearms Licencing in the News again...

Sorry to hi-jack thread but it seemed on the same level.
Having now moved from Afghanistan after 5 years to the Falklands for work i have discovered that down here you can have almost any weapon as long as its not automatic.
Going into the local DIY store which had a nice shotgun on display i saw this....
View attachment 357640 Asking around one of my work colleagues was selling his Steyr 9mm before leaving to return to UK and another maybe selling his 9mm Browning......i think i can put up with the horizontal rain we are having here at the moment to be able to buy guns like the above.
If you don't mind horizontal rain as long as pistol shooting can be had then NI and Isle of Man are a lot nearer than FI.
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
Sorry to hi-jack thread but it seemed on the same level.
Having now moved from Afghanistan after 5 years to the Falklands for work i have discovered that down here you can have almost any weapon as long as its not automatic.
Going into the local DIY store which had a nice shotgun on display i saw this....
View attachment 357640 Asking around one of my work colleagues was selling his Steyr 9mm before leaving to return to UK and another maybe selling his 9mm Browning......i think i can put up with the horizontal rain we are having here at the moment to be able to buy guns like the above.
Is that nine milly gold plated ?
 
Think about it this way for a minute:

I hope the Police aren’t relieved of it because if you want to pay for a private company (if you can find one with suitably vetted staff that will be Home Office approved) to administer the system and then have to ask the Police at a cost for background checks which will ultimately be passed on to the applicant (I’m actually surprised how the Police allow us to eat into their budget - heavily subsidised in reality) then crack on, staff/admin cost/vehicle and fuel for visits etc.....

Any private company/other public service would run a mile unless they can make a profit, the only way to do this is to price it so, while it’s not perfect I’d love to see how anyone could administer this for £70 for five years a pop based on the number of firearms holders in the UK.
 
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Think about it this way for a minute:

I hope the Police aren’t relieved of it because if you want to pay for a private company (if you can find one with suitably vetted staff that will be Home Office approved) to administer the system and then have to ask the Police at a cost for background checks which will ultimately be passed on to the applicant (I’m actually surprised how the Police allow us to eat into their budget - heavily subsidised in reality) then crack on, staff/admin cost/vehicle and fuel for visits etc.....

Any private company/other public service would run a mile unless they can make a profit, the only way to do this is to price it so, while it’s not perfect I’d love to see how anyone could administer this for £70 for five years a pop based on the number of firearms holders in the UK.


The costs of firearms licensing are 100% the Police and Home Office' fault for introducing layer after layer of repressive controls and requirements, and imposing these with laws written to a third world degree of incompetence and/or malice. The Police themselves are unquestionably acting far beyond their legal remit in driving this process.

I now have six separate certificates, five of which attract a renewal fee, and three of which have different application requirements, including separate FEO/expert visits. Frankly, the whole lot could easily be incorporated in a single document with a - say - ten year renewal check.

Like many in my position, I've borne firearms for HMG for 30+ years, have owned firearms without issue for 40+ years, and have a vetting record that should indicate that i'm a fairly stolid citizen. Despite all this, as a firearms owner and RFD I receive more attention from the authorities than most career criminals.

To put this in perspective, my first FAC application as a student involved a home visit and a cup of tea with a veteran copper. Next day he dropped off an FAC containing "authority to acquire" 10x full bore rifles and 10x full bore pistols. In the decades since, I have never breached that initial assessment of trust and suitability.

We live in an era where government is generating additional bureaucratic state control faster than money can be found to administer it. With the apparent death of any democratic accountability, all forms of public service (including firearms licensing) are simply becoming additional sources of taxation.

IMHO the Police have put their own feet to the funding fire with regard to firearms licensing and they really ought to be held to account to deliver a proper service* within an already excessive fee structure

*(Four months for an uncontested routine variation? Really? In which other area of public service is that sort of performance even legally permissible?)
 
The costs of firearms licensing are 100% the Police and Home Office' fault for introducing layer after layer of repressive controls and requirements, and imposing these with laws written to a third world degree of incompetence and/or malice. The Police themselves are unquestionably acting far beyond their legal remit in driving this process.

I now have six separate certificates, five of which attract a renewal fee, and three of which have different application requirements, including separate FEO/expert visits. Frankly, the whole lot could easily be incorporated in a single document with a - say - ten year renewal check.

Like many in my position, I've borne firearms for HMG for 30+ years, have owned firearms without issue for 40+ years, and have a vetting record that should indicate that i'm a fairly stolid citizen. Despite all this, as a firearms owner and RFD I receive more attention from the authorities than most career criminals.

To put this in perspective, my first FAC application as a student involved a home visit and a cup of tea with a veteran copper. Next day he dropped off an FAC containing "authority to acquire" 10x full bore rifles and 10x full bore pistols. In the decades since, I have never breached that initial assessment of trust and suitability.

We live in an era where government is generating additional bureaucratic state control faster than money can be found to administer it. With the apparent death of any democratic accountability, all forms of public service (including firearms licensing) are simply becoming additional sources of taxation.

IMHO the Police have put their own feet to the funding fire with regard to firearms licensing and they really ought to be held to account to deliver a proper service* within an already excessive fee structure

*(Four months for an uncontested routine variation? Really? In which other area of public service is that sort of performance even legally permissible?)
Bearing arms for HMG (other than experience in the use gained, and I can think of a few I served with who probably shouldn’t have been allowed near anything dangerous) has no relevance to civilian licensing but that is not the issue here.

Do you have a suggestion of who can take it on for the price it costs for five years which you say is ‘excessive’, it costs that to fill an average family car with fuel. Cost wise I think your pissing into the wind but I’d be delighted to be proved otherwise as it would save me money.

I never said it was ideal but would a private company or organisation do better for the same or cheaper? Think Group 4 and the current prison debacle.

I really think that legislation is to tight and doesn’t need further constraints but that is more successive governments which push for changes to show that are doing something to address criminality in society that has nothing to do with legal firearms ownership, they’d be better looking at certain demographics of the population but that would be deemed to be something else.
 
The costs of firearms licensing are 100% the Police and Home Office' fault for introducing layer after layer of repressive controls and requirements, and imposing these with laws written to a third world degree of incompetence and/or malice. The Police themselves are unquestionably acting far beyond their legal remit in driving this process.

I now have six separate certificates, five of which attract a renewal fee, and three of which have different application requirements, including separate FEO/expert visits. Frankly, the whole lot could easily be incorporated in a single document with a - say - ten year renewal check.

Like many in my position, I've borne firearms for HMG for 30+ years, have owned firearms without issue for 40+ years, and have a vetting record that should indicate that i'm a fairly stolid citizen. Despite all this, as a firearms owner and RFD I receive more attention from the authorities than most career criminals.

To put this in perspective, my first FAC application as a student involved a home visit and a cup of tea with a veteran copper. Next day he dropped off an FAC containing "authority to acquire" 10x full bore rifles and 10x full bore pistols. In the decades since, I have never breached that initial assessment of trust and suitability.

We live in an era where government is generating additional bureaucratic state control faster than money can be found to administer it. With the apparent death of any democratic accountability, all forms of public service (including firearms licensing) are simply becoming additional sources of taxation.

IMHO the Police have put their own feet to the funding fire with regard to firearms licensing and they really ought to be held to account to deliver a proper service* within an already excessive fee structure

*(Four months for an uncontested routine variation? Really? In which other area of public service is that sort of performance even legally permissible?)

The huge paperwork burden on shooters is quite deliberate.
It’s such a pfaff getting an FAC now, pl3nty of new joiners at my club give up and stop coming.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
Its been said before that the Police can do better and one or two forces do it really cheaply. The different departments could all be managed centrally using a single head office that set standards and clarified guidance. That is all that is needed. Access to the PNC? Simple they have it now moving them into a room without the word police above the door doesn't change them in any way.
 
Access to the PNC? Simple they have it now moving them into a room without the word police above the door doesn't change them in any way.
Really? You're happy with untrained, unvetted and unaccredited people having access to PNC, NFLMS etc?

Or are you talking about a National Agency? Moving the current incumbents under one umbrella? Rebranding from current Police to a 'Firearms Licensing Agency'? Where costs, computers, desks, vehicles, building, heating etc. all need to be paid for? Cut the current plod budget by 0.002% for example and set up an agency?
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
Really? You're happy with untrained, unvetted and unaccredited people having access to PNC, NFLMS etc?

Or are you talking about a National Agency? Moving the current incumbents under one umbrella? Rebranding from current Police to a 'Firearms Licensing Agency'? Where costs, computers, desks, vehicles, building, heating etc. all need to be paid for? Cut the current plod budget by 0.002% for example and set up an agency?
Really? You're happy with untrained, unvetted and unaccredited people having access to PNC, NFLMS etc?

Or are you talking about a National Agency? Moving the current incumbents under one umbrella? Rebranding from current Police to a 'Firearms Licensing Agency'? Where costs, computers, desks, vehicles, building, heating etc. all need to be paid for? Cut the current plod budget by 0.002% for example and set up an agency?
I'm saying just take them away from the police HQ and away from Police control. They can use the same buildings if needed. Whats needed is a central licensing authority to cut out all of the regional bollox.
The National office doesn't need to administer applications just adjudicate in cases where complaints or standards are in dispute! It therefore only needs a handful of administrators and can be small. The regional offices can remain they dont need to be police controlled.
 
I'm saying just take them away from the police HQ and away from Police control. They can use the same buildings if needed.
Really? How do these 'rooms' in Police HQ get used? Are they rented? Bought?
Whats needed is a central licensing authority to cut out all of the regional bollox.
I'm not disputing that, probably something under NCA. A national unit.
The National office doesn't need to administer applications
Who does that then?
just adjudicate in cases where complaints or standards are in dispute!
A two tier service then? Or just a panel? If up for revocation or refusal, go before a panel?
It therefore only needs a handful of administrators and can be small.
Really? Having seen both sides of 'the fence' I believe you have no idea. Everyone bases it on what they do and what their mates say they do. The reality is somewhat different.
The regional offices can remain they dont need to be police controlled.
And who accredits them? Vets them? Powers them? Heats them? I could go on ...... but you may get the point that it isn't simple and the start up costs of such an organisation as previously said would be prohibitive let alone the fact there is zero interest unless money can be recouped.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
And who accredits them? Vets them? Powers them? Heats them? I could go on ...... but you may get the point that it isn't simple and the start up costs of such an organisation as previously said would be prohibitive let alone the fact there is zero interest unless money can be recouped.
Accreditation? Who does that now?
They could at least attempt to cost it but the regional offices shouldn't be controlled by the local service. The laws are national and should have set national minimum standards for the money we pay!
Having seen the salaries on offer from an FEO to a force manager I know that wages are not the big drain!
Its been a long held belief that certain off the list jobs are funded through scams schemes like this
 
Accreditation? Who does that now?
A Police approved training course, run by accredited trainers. See start up costs or ‘buying in’ trainers and vetting. All of these costs are currently swallowed by plod.
They could at least attempt to cost it but the regional offices shouldn't be controlled by the local service.
Stuff like heating, lighting, council tax etc. That’d keep a fully employed bean counter occupied on top of everything else
The laws are national and should have set national minimum standards for the money we pay!
Agreed. Your £12 annually goes somewhere
Having seen the salaries on offer from an FEO to a force manager I know that wages are not the big drain!
Certainly aren’t. It’s all of the ‘on costs’ plus actually paying NI contributions, setting up PAYE etc etc.
Its been a long held belief that certain off the list jobs are funded through scams schemes like this
Such as?
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
Senior plods cars and drivers for a start? Are they in the scale?
A Police approved training course, run by accredited trainers. See start up costs or ‘buying in’ trainers and vetting. All of these costs are currently swallowed by plod.
Only they seem to add these swallowed costs when showing how inefficient they are! The trainers cover the whole country? How many are there, can they work for the HQ?
 
Senior plods cars and drivers for a start? Are they in the scale?
A bug bear of mine. Why use Audi’s when a Ford will do.

Anyway, costs of Snr plod who may (or may not, depending on Force) make a decision, plus legal services, plus bean counters, HR support etc are not included.

They can be ‘taxed’ at Court, but that’s another story.
Only they seem to add these swallowed costs when showing how inefficient they are!
Do they?
The trainers cover the whole country? How many are there, can they work for the HQ?
You can, as above, buy in accredited trainers or get them trained, same as vetting, pay for the service, to have them vetted. All ‘hidden’ from your £12 a year.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
All ‘hidden’ from your £12 a year.
If only, £12 if it was a ten year set, like 4T I am licensed in many ways all of them inefficient!
 
If only, £12 if it was a ten year set, like 4T I am licensed in many ways all of them inefficient!
'value for money'. What you may deem as inefficient and overly bureaucratic requires a change in primary legislation. The only time that happens is to increase controls.

Btw, I'm licensed in many ways as well, but not just to keep and use firearms. Many people are. I even have to do numerous online courses every year just so that I can do what I do. I also have to declare many things. It's a fact of life.

As many times before, it does need a 'root and branch' review. The principle objective is 'what are you trying to achieve'? The second is how do you achieve it? Then a 'cost/benefit analysis'.
 
I have to say Scalieback has done a more in-depth analysis than myself and highlighted a lot of points which have to be taken into account making anyone else considering taking it on to run a mile - costs would become astronomical.

While people may not like it, the Police are the best people to be dealing with this as the amount of personal information and background checks required is personal information I wouldn’t want to have to provide to a ‘private’ company including details of my firearms and security arrangements.

While I don’t agree with the inconsistent Doctors Fee’s in Scotland (coming to a county near you soon), I’m not against the new health checks or whatever they call them, in fact it’s probably a good thing.

A lot can happen in someone’s personal life in 5 years and if this review highlights something that may stop a tragedy then I fail to see the issue.

Where there is an issue is the way mental health is dealt with by the Police when it comes to FAC certificate holders - this needs seriously looked at as it probably stops people who need help going for it as not all mental health issues should mean revoking certificates but they generally do and this is completely wrong.

While I agree that from comments some departments are clearly inefficient this should be questioned first at a local level - this can be done, a good idea may be to have an independent (ie out of area) review board for any complaints.

The HO guidance should be consistently applied which is the main bugbear, but then there are also people who will want certain firearms ‘just because’ but can’t justify them and spit the dummy out. If you can’t provide a ‘good reason’ then your probably too fecking stupid or don’t have access to the right ground/club.

While I’m on it nothing boils my piss more than people dribbling about pistols who didn’t even have a FAC or didn’t want one when they were allowed on Section 1 and then try and use humane dispatch etc as a way to get one - I did have pistols, never took one stalking, but don’t cry into my cornflakes every morning about it now that I don’t albeit I’d have one again if the current situation was overturned.
 
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The huge paperwork burden on shooters is quite deliberate.
It’s such a pfaff getting an FAC now, pl3nty of new joiners at my club give up and stop coming.
What paperwork burden? It’s a form to fill out, one to send to your doctor and few photos plus your permission to shoot at club/ground to shoot on.

It isn’t rocket science and a 6 month probationary period (or whatever it is), isn’t exactly that taxing if it’s something your interested in. As a club secretary it’s confirming joe bloggs has been a regular attender - again not that taxing.

When I attended a small bore club most of the people who gave up did so because it wasn’t for them or they didn’t ‘get’ why they couldn’t buy their own rifle straight away or simply just lost interest.
 
The huge paperwork burden on shooters is quite deliberate.
It’s such a pfaff getting an FAC now, pl3nty of new joiners at my club give up and stop coming.
I think if it takes you more than 90 mins inc coffee stops to fill in an FAC application then maybe you shouldnt be granted one.
90 mins and a couple photos and you are done for five years.
 

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