FIghting without the US - SoS Defence

Op Corporate ?
That was 40 years ago and while logistically tough - There are tougher nuts to crack. I am sure the UK would over perform given it’s resources, but still. The armed forces are a shadow of themselves.
 
Why does everybody love the Irish?

Least not because they don't stick their noses into other countries affairs by committing troo

If this is remotely true, I hope it heralds a massive investment in J4 - because that's what the US has down pat. I fear it's going to be a Infantry preservation exercise.

Either way, shots fired for SDSR 20.
I wonder what war's he's having nightmares about...

If it wasn't for the US most of what we have been committed too and lost good men in is because of American foreign policy in it's current form back than such as GW Bush launching the "war on terror" and the arse licking crony known as Blair following suit, if Trump is more inclined to think of US interests it's in our interests, like most countries, to do the same.
 
Banner was only part of the reason, the way the British Army was set up to fight in armoured battle groups meant that you needed Infantry to work with the tanks, the ratio was almost 1 apc’s per Tank and the arms plot meant rotating bns regularly so everyone got a chance to experience armoured warfare!
Banner was a huge drain upon manpower which without short tours from BAOR etc wouldn’t have been manageable

One could argue that withdrawal from East of Suez meant that we were fighting many wars with no US help!
I'd agree, as following the withdrawal from East of Suez there was no real need for a decent replacement for Saracen/Saladin.
Banner absorbed a lot of the Light units (Type B?) and allowed this mech gap to continue. Yes, Saracen was employed in NI as a stop gap,
In this light, the intro of Saxon can be seen as a "modesty veil" to improve the deployability & survivability of the inf troops, without having to foot a saracen/saladin replacement bill.

Can kicking that then naturally evolved in to FFLAV/TRACER//MRAV/VERDI etc etc?
 
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We could also opt to be like Ireland in the foreseeable future...

Neutrality

Less war means less tax payers funds wasted, less blood spilled, doesn't further antagonise p*ssed off countries with UK foreign policies they don't already like and it will also please the gen-pop whom are scratching their heads about Trumps erratic daily decision making.
Please go to the QM and hand your balls back in

or more precisely, watch how the Irish's traditional neutrality translates to parochial backwater (default mode), as the favourable tax regime they have benefited from within the EU starts to erode.
 

Yokel

LE
But, but, but... you have recent publicity of RAS between aircraft carriers & other ships, F-35s taking off etc etc

Are you saying this was all just SDSR positioning, a PR sham enhanced to try and sell more capability than can be manned?

I suspect that was not what @instinct meant, but issues include:

Manpower - the RN does not have enough SQEP personnel in front line posts, and taking them from support posts means that there is a shortage of SQEP there, which means there is a problem with things like procurement, training, and supporting front line units. Perhaps we the RN had got those extra 1500 personnel as part of SDSR 15.

The RFA also has manpower issues.

Deskilling and Outsourcing - everything seems to be outsourced these days. Apart from a lack of shore jobs for personnel fed up of being at sea all the time, it means there is a lack of personnel who can be deployed in an emergency (think of the manpower needed for naval parties aboard STUFT in 1982), and some things that ships could do themselves now have to been done by a contractor.

The decline in the merchant fleet - although chartering vessels is preferred these days, a real crisis may been taking them up from trade. Only British registered vessels could be used.
 
I suspect that was not what @instinct meant, but issues include:

Manpower - the RN does not have enough SQEP personnel in front line posts, and taking them from support posts means that there is a shortage of SQEP there, which means there is a problem with things like procurement, training, and supporting front line units. Perhaps we the RN had got those extra 1500 personnel as part of SDSR 15.

The RFA also has manpower issues.

Deskilling and Outsourcing - everything seems to be outsourced these days. Apart from a lack of shore jobs for personnel fed up of being at sea all the time, it means there is a lack of personnel who can be deployed in an emergency (think of the manpower needed for naval parties aboard STUFT in 1982), and some things that ships could do themselves now have to been done by a contractor.

The decline in the merchant fleet - although chartering vessels is preferred these days, a real crisis may been taking them up from trade. Only British registered vessels could be used.
NSS - you don't do nuance very well?

I was agreeing with Instinct and highlighting that there is certain amount of pre SDSR dark blue willy waving going on
 

Yokel

LE
NSS? Sorry I have not had enough caffeine this morning to make my two brain cells work. Yeah I get it now! You may think it obvious but do the politicians? Nobody has even won a war with spreadsheets.

I mentioned things I have heard people talking about - and seen a few of them for myself. As for willy waving, well that is the MOD PR machine for you. Given the blurred line between exercises and operations I am not sure that highlighting things like contributing to NATO activities counts as willy waving.
 
A balanced army is about far more than just infantry.

If we want a balanced army and the current numbers of infantry, then re-establish the TA in its historical form.
Agreed.
 
I’d be interested in knowing the thinking behind the SoS remarks. I am not clear who we would be fighting or if his point is rhetorical.

It is true that the US has become an increasingly poor ally militarily. It’s pretty open news that NATO PNs have been excluded from the Doha talks, despite having committed huge amounts of lives and cash to Afghanistan at the behest of the US. It is clear that the objectives of PNs are irrelevant to the US - and we wait to see how this changes the calculus of nations in NATO.
You see a similar thing in Syria/ the Gulf - with scant US concern for other TCNs.

This isn’t a criticism of the current ‘US First’ approach - it’s perfectly valid for a nation to behave that way - but it does mean some assumptions need to be questioned.
 
At the expense of critically underfunded areas of the Army yes, particularly as spending on the Inf at the expense of i.e. Armour saves the Treasury a fortune.

Army on the cheap.
Perhaps I should have used a few more words in my original post. No one should be underfunded more or less than anyone else. Big Army or not, it must be balanced. There's no point having the world's best G4 if there is no one to issue the beans and bullets to.

I could add that Armour saves more than just the 'Treasury a fortune', they also save the infantry, underfunded or not.
 
I'm not worried about perceptions of our international importance; punching above our weight, etc. My concern is that a politician will one day send forces into a situation for which they are ill-prepared* precisely because of the fall in the defence budget since 1989. And if that's vs Russia, we won't be able to UOR our way to improvements.
If deploying sans US support is keeping the SoS awake, good. It should be.
A purpose (not cost)-driven defence review is needed. A planning assumption should be that the US will not necessarily be with us. The review should have an honest (and redacted if necessary) discussion about our commitments and whether they are primarily political in nature [Estonia for example] and what we'd do if a situation like Estonia suddenly escalated.

*again.
 
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Perhaps I should have used a few more words in my original post. No one should be underfunded more or less than anyone else. Big Army or not, it must be balanced. There's no point having the world's best G4 if there is no one to issue the beans and bullets to.

I could add that Armour saves more than just the 'Treasury a fortune', they also save the infantry, underfunded or not.
Thanks for explaining and I agree.

With my REME background (Reg, TA, FTRS & NRPS) from a REME perspective I'd bin the REME AR element and take those posts into the Regulars and support regular units a lot more closely. Currently, and for a long time, the AR is little more than a convienient place to store unused Green Fleet instead of in CHE and REME AR get nothing like the hands on that they used to and are mainly held at Bn level. I'm aware MoD occasionally rotate some of the Green Fleet, BFA's certainly as my last unit can testify, but if WFM was being done correctly they'd be rotating Green Fleet a heck of a lot more.
 
Thanks for explaining and I agree.

With my REME background (Reg, TA, FTRS & NRPS) from a REME perspective I'd bin the REME AR element and take those posts into the Regulars and support regular units a lot more closely. Currently, and for a long time, the AR is little more than a convienient place to store unused Green Fleet instead of in CHE and REME AR get nothing like the hands on that they used to and are mainly held at Bn level. I'm aware MoD occasionally rotate some of the Green Fleet, BFA's certainly as my last unit can testify, but if WFM was being done correctly they'd be rotating Green Fleet a heck of a lot more.
AIUI moving CSS units in to the AR had more to do with maintaining OF4 opportunities for those who weren't WTE types. Isn't there a REME Bde structure now?
 
AIUI moving CSS units in to the AR had more to do with maintaining OF4 opportunities for those who weren't WTE types. Isn't there a REME Bde structure now?
Jobs for the boys is a long standing, and somewhat justified REME whinge, it's why REME formed Bns afterall. As for Bde structure, as an NRPS WO I was supported by a succession of excellent Reg SO2 ES and WO2 ES at 51 Bde, attending their conferences regularly. They also provided Lifting Tackle trg annually via the ECIT. After I left my unit changed Bde a number of times and I'm not sure who my old civvy fitter (my eventual replacement AQMS having his job written out by the unit) contacts for support as despite being in Scotland I believe his Div and Bde are in BFG :) Real joined up thinking there :)
 

4(T)

LE
I hope the SoS isn't preparing the ground to reveal that we're locked into some sort of obligation to the nascent EU defence organisation. I get the suspicion that we're a lot deeper in that rabbit hole than has been made public.
 
I hope the SoS isn't preparing the ground to reveal that we're locked into some sort of obligation to the nascent EU defence organisation. I get the suspicion that we're a lot deeper in that rabbit hole than has been made public.
Citation needed.
 
Not fighting a war without the US will be a lot easier though.
 

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