Fighting Light.. what is the problem?

[Helm]

Jet packs. . . end the thread.

 

[tiny_recy_mac]

Tbh I don't think we were far behind, the 'lightweight' desert dpm and mtp combats had a disposable feel to them as did the boots. Tbh everything (Inc my rifle) was pretty knackered by the time we'd done PDT and the tour so would've wanted chucking regardless.

I think there will always be a few items that will need be the best money can buy (PPE, boots, weapons, rations) but other things are massively over engineered like that new cleaning kit, it's bigger than my daysack

Agree - we have XX rifles in our armory and Y GPMGs yet we have a 'multi role' cleaning kit for every weapon meaning we have 'X+Y' GMPG cleaning kit parts when we only need 'Y'. How this is cheaper is beyond me.

I have also witnessed the purple one (PBUH) walking through the workshop come weapon cleaning nights convincing people to either use the GPMG pull through eye or flannelette on the SA80 and departing in a flash of purple smoke to the sound of one of the armourers turning the air blue!

 

[irlsgt]

One marvelous piece of kit you have now is the Goretex bivvy bag. In most situations I would suggest that is part of belt-order, not left in the main pack with the sleeping bag. Add a space blanket for where it is cold at night.
A very small weight addition - some shelter from wind, rain, cold when situation doesn't go as planned.

Defeats the object of fight light

It’s basically JIT

 

[medwaymud]

Defeats the object of fight light

It’s basically JIT

How on earth does a bivvy bag interfere with fight light ?
It weighs less than a babies wet nappy - and it means you may be able to grab a couple of hours of sleep - rather than no sleep, shivering .

 

[old_bloke]

It is horses for courses . WW2 , North Africa, blokes with battle dress, helmet , weapon , and suffering with only , what 1 or 2 pints of water a day. Compo was shite and no fresh for months. Still they did it .

 

[wasteofrations2]

Defeats the object of fight light

It’s basically JIT

JOOI, what's the crack on your side of the water regarding fighting/ marching order etc?

 

[smallbrownprivates]

Interesting. Mobile kit carriers perhaps? Much like the old Bren carriers with their attached sections.

Blokes in the bit of the sandpit where I work operate using Toyota HiLux pick ups, 20 to a pick up. They all pile on with their kit and off they go. They're small and skinny without a lot of shit to drag around, so it's feasible for them.

A mate who does a lot of camping in the kangene with his family using a 4X4 (he's Kenyan so calls it a safari in a velly porsh accent don'ty'know) issues his missus and kids an ammo box each. Whatever goes in there they can take along, the rest stays behind or on their laps or being worn.

Combining the two ideas, perhaps a mobile unit like the Oz bushmaster, individual ammo box type lockers in the seats for the crew and troops attached, rack to sling rucksack/body armour/chest webbing depending what isn't being used in that particular role. Basic kit is belt kit or shooter's belt with rifle, helmet and two mag pouches and two water bottles. Everything else is in the vehicle to be swopped out or worn as required, a bit like the local fighters here who are attached to the vehicle as a mobile unit. Integral water tank in the vehicle for the troops instead of the jerry cans, coke bottles and 50 gallon drums we find in the HiLux. If the vehicle is disabled but the crew and troops are OK, pretty much everything can be carried out or quickly transferred to a new vehicle in a modular way.

It's more a conventional warfare thing but can be used for light fast moving patrols with three units laagered up with one attached troop as security and the other two patrolling. Not the heavy and slow WP BTR stuff we see the combatants using in Ukraine but a more mobile type of warfare with adaptability for COIN.

Mozambique? Or parts northern?

For those interested in Toyota technical tactics and social structures, David Kilcullen's Out of The Mountains has a section about the Somali army. Section commanders are wealthy enough to own their own pickups, they drive towards the sound of gunfire as an SOP, sect commander never dismounts/gets in front of the main armament and basic converging sweeplines, fired in by a supporting vehicle provide effective swarming tactics - can be be completely radio silent/no electronic signature.

 

[wasteofrations2]

Regarding the G4 train, wasn't that why the platoon sergeant was on a quad bike?

 

[Dan Gleebles]

We all want to be dry, warm and well fed, but the reality is that to fight light we must accept privations.

The essentials are ammo and water.

Everything else is a luxury.

The logistical chain must supply every provision to maintain the combat effort.

If a ship or aircraft isn’t refuelled or rearmed it ceases to be an effective force.
Why should an army unit be any different?

The vicious circle perpetuates when units don’t trust logistics and overburden themselves, then logistics needn’t be concerned because units are shouldering enough kit to self sustain, so no great effort is required to provide logistics, which leaves units not trusting them to deliver, so overburdened themselves…

 

[irlsgt]

JOOI, what's the crack on your side of the water regarding fighting/ marching order etc?

We have fight light too but our body armour isn’t as modular as Virtus, nor as plentiful with quads etc

 

[irlsgt]

How on earth does a bivvy bag interfere with fight light ?
It weighs less than a babies wet nappy - and it means you may be able to grab a couple of hours of sleep - rather than no sleep, shivering .

Fight Light (done correctly) means you pack and carry for the immediate task.

In the most extreme that means the fight to take the first building with the appropriate PPE (risk/mobility) and then you get resupply after that.

It means for example at 2pm when you are advancing to contact you don’t have your NVE on the body.

 

[par avion]

We all want to be dry, warm and well fed, but the reality is that to fight light we must accept privations.

The essentials are ammo and water.

Everything else is a luxury.

Depends where you are and the climate. In Northern Norway the cold dictates operations. Troops don't venture far without warm clothing to hand. Climatic conditions will also affect logistics as well. The Wehrmacht learn't the hard way in 1941.

 

[oldsoak]

Defeats the object of fight light

It’s basically JIT

You have to bear in mind climatic conditions and local weather.
Summer in N Europe lowlands would probably see you comfortably sleeping out with what you stand up in - in N Europe highlands, possibly not. Wintertime, no to both. Wet weather will adversely affect both ground and your ability to operate and brings risk of exposure. Even dry sandy places can get a terrific drop in temperature overnight.
It may well be that you get a 30L daysack which contains goretex bivvy, waterproofs and basic warm kit ( woolly hat/snood, gloves, socks, snugpack softy or fleece shirt ) plus 3 combat rations that give a basic 1200 calories a day and a hot drink. Far less than you need, but just to make sure you don't crash. Water resup will have to be carefully planned. Assume 6 litres for 3 days and thats 6kg in weight - which to be fair gets lighter every day. When you get back you get force fed cake and proper scoff for a few days so you replace lost body fat before the next round.
You dont have to carry the day sack into battle, but you need to have it handy.

 

[Portree Kid]

We all want to be dry, warm and well fed, but the reality is that to fight light we must accept privations.

The essentials are ammo and water.

Everything else is a luxury.

The basics of the Infantry '' To close with, and kill the enemy ''

That is why we had

CEMO & CEFO

Taxi's of the truck, 432, warrior varieties were great - When they were available. Things do not grind to a halt if for some reason they are not available.

 

[irlsgt]

You have to bear in mind climatic conditions and local weather.
Summer in N Europe lowlands would probably see you comfortably sleeping out with what you stand up in - in N Europe highlands, possibly not. Wintertime, no to both. Wet weather will adversely affect both ground and your ability to operate and brings risk of exposure. Even dry sandy places can get a terrific drop in temperature overnight.
It may well be that you get a 30L daysack which contains goretex bivvy, waterproofs and basic warm kit ( woolly hat/snood, gloves, socks, snugpack softy or fleece shirt ) plus 3 combat rations that give a basic 1200 calories a day and a hot drink. Far less than you need, but just to make sure you don't crash. Water resup will have to be carefully planned. Assume 6 litres for 3 days and thats 6kg in weight - which to be fair gets lighter every day. When you get back you get force fed cake and proper scoff for a few days so you replace lost body fat before the next round.
You dont have to carry the day sack into battle, but you need to have it handy.

I don’t disagree but it isn’t what Fight Light says you don’t carry just in case you carry what you need for the immediate task in hand

This link gives an intro to it but it has developed more since

 

[Lardbeast]

...At the other end of the scale, last weekend I was at dinner with an ex-member of the South African SF. He showed me his smock. I've never seen such a well put together outdoor garment. I've added a picture of one (not his).

Sheepskin patches on the shoulders and on the bottoms of the pockets. Just a really, really well-constructed item. I'd happily have one in less military colours as a general-use jacket.

See if you can find a slangvel (snakeskin) on eBay. They're usually nutria with grey patches and around the same sort of design.

...And PMcA in a very rare giraffe camo one laying the good word on the troops about making the enemy cry.

 

[Lardbeast]

Mozambique? Or parts northern?...

Farther north and a bit more sandy.

 

[Andy Farman]

I think osprey in full plates alone during the latter stages of HERRICK was 20-25lb. Can't recall which ECM suite was the heaviest as I was saddled with a nice light radio as 2IC.

Mind having to wear those f***ing stupid cod pieces as well ?? And getting kit checked to make sure you were wearing the black ballistic lycra shorts prior to patrols. I'm surprised I'm still fertile!

'Agile' would be a distant adjective to describe the manoeuvrability of our patrols.

Patrols?
DPM Jap hat
Lacky bands around the legs and sleeves.
Toggle rope as a belt.
One spare mag in each pocket.
pair of plimsolls.
Blanket and a right angle torch to read the map under.
Mars Bar if you are dicked for the FRV.

 

[Cold_Collation]

Unfortunately there are VSO / ambitions SO elements in infantry that fear the blindingly obvious deduction, (let the waggon to the tabbing) as that -as they see it - would render them "mere" panzergrenadiers, thereby reducing the number of infantry brigades and Bns.

ETA: Thee track record of reality penetrating the upper echelons of the Army is pathetic.

There’s more than that. There’s the misplaced pride that our guys can hack continually carrying heavy loads over ground. This is seen as the acme of soldiering. It completely misses the point of arriving fit to fight, both in terms of personal freshness and with adequate equipment, ammunition and so on.

 

[Fat POM]

Patrols?
DPM Jap hat or cap comforter
Lacky bands around the legs and sleeves. Or BHM
Toggle rope as a belt. Or rifle sling
One spare mag in each pocket.
pair of plimsolls.
Blanket (or groundsheet) and a right angle torch to read the map under.
Mars Bar (or oatmeal block)if you are dicked for the FRV.

I was that soldier.