Fighting Light.. what is the problem?

[fraudstar]

And that Sir, is where your point lays in cold and wet tatters.

If soldiers can remain effective in those conditions for weeks, what’s the big deal about being cold and wet for a day?

You seem keen to isolate the principle of minimal carriage to a specific hypothetical patrol.

Are you saying nothing can be eliminated from the loads carried on a routine patrol expected to last 24 hours?

No, I’m asking what extraneous kit is being carried.

Not all patrols are equal. A point you seem at pains to ignore.

 

[Kroneit44]

Not for a pressure plate or tripwire operated device.

Pretty sure that's a booby trap.

 

[fraudstar]

We normally patrolled for a week at a time.

Heli from base onto a high feature, then ski with +100lbs bergan, pulling a pulk full of stores. No water.

Contact drill was to ditch the bergan, and manoeuvre wearing belt kit.

The point is that the bergan was what you lived out of, and dumped whenever and as soon as possible.

Living off belt kit, complete with bfo survival knife and the contents of your pockets(a rigidly mandated list) was something routinely taught.

How did you get water? How much did you drink a day.

 

[Kroneit44]

Also flat wrong. PP (pressure plate) IED / VO (victim operated) IED are entirely self contained, have no signal to block, and require no En to initiate the device.

I'm not sure you have a good understanding of IED and C-IED technology.

Booby trap. I'll give you the fact that i fat fingered an "of" instead of an "or" but the point stands. ECM removes a vector.

 

[Sarastro]

Booby trap. I'll give you the fact that i fat fingered an "of" instead of an "or" but the point stands. ECM removes a vector.

Whatever you call it, a booby trap doesn't reduce En survivability, because they don't have to be anywhere near the device to initiate it. Exploitation of a PP-IED is no different to exploitation of an RC-IED, in fact, an RC-IED is much easier to trace because components and skills are rarer, as well as being technically possible to trace when in the ground (a link is required to initiate it, any link can theoretically be exploited). So if anything PP-IED increase En survivability, not reduce it. You were wrong. You applied what you had been taught about command wire devices to other devices, and it's incorrect.

ECM removes a small, disposable vector, at a much larger tactical cost to us. That is what I mean by: they didn't win it, we lost it.

 

[Kroneit44]

Short video of Ukrainian Troops advancing into a village, They are equipped with rifle, body armour, helmet and NLAW, I would guess they are carrying some ammo in a chest rig, but no water, ECM, or anything else

Is there an RCIED threat in Ukraine yet?

 

[fraudstar]

Things the chain of command (happier?) i.e. not the ground commander, mandated on operations outside RMAS:

Body armour
Helmets
Assorted other bits of PPE, clothing, ear defence, etc.
ECM (& batteries)
Medical kit, personal and patrol
Radios (& batteries)
Personal weapon system, in some cases, specific alternate weapons systems
24-hr rations
ID cards, dog-tags, Card Alpha and other ephemera

Coincidentally, that stuff comprises almost the entirety of weight on the man. By 'mandated', I mean a combination of an order: "these will be worn or carried", often delivered through packages such as RSOI, or the certain knowledge that if a casualty or similar event occured and it was found these items were not carried, then that commander's career would be over. About the only discretionary, high-weight item was exact scales of ammunition.

So I don't really know what you're talking about. Was this perhaps a mass delusion that everyone with a TAM from JNCO's on up thought that these items were mandated? If somehow it wasn't, is that not something of a command failure that successive brigades deployed carrying all this stuff thinking it was mandated when actually, they were never required to? Going to take a bit more than your word to convince me.

Which of those do you think should/could not have been carried in the context?

 

[rampant]

Is there an RCIED threat in Ukraine yet?

Think the Russians are more agricultural in their approach, just "mechanically" operated booby traps of stores, vehicles etc ect, so no ECM necessary, but very pared back load

 

[Kroneit44]

Whatever you call it, a booby trap doesn't reduce En survivability, because they don't have to be anywhere near the device to initiate it. Exploitation of a PP-IED is no different to exploitation of an RC-IED, in fact, an RC-IED is much easier to trace because components and skills are rarer, as well as being technically possible to trace when in the ground (a link is required to initiate it, any link can theoretically be exploited). So if anything PP-IED increase En survivability, not reduce it. You were wrong. You applied what you had been taught about command wire devices to other devices, and it's incorrect.

ECM removes a small, disposable vector, at a much larger tactical cost to us. That is what I mean by: they didn't win it, we lost it.

Don't agree. When we put the balloons up, the time spent laying a victim operated IED cost en a lot of lives.

 

[fraudstar]

imho, I think we have to differentiate what we take with us in transit to our patrol area as opposed to what we take when we are actively looking for the enemy. Yes, we will carry a bit until we get to and establish a patrol base. Then, once thats done, dump all kit except what you need and get out and do your recce, fighting, standing - whatever - patrols. What you are doing will decide what you carry doing those.
So , yes you marched in to the patrol base with ammo, bivvy, kipmat, doss bag, 72 hours rats, spec kit etc etc - however, you going out in 2 degrees of sleet will see you carrying ammo, water, a meal/hobnobs, goretex waterprooofs and a warm top so you dont freeze while resting up.

If you are out longer than your alloted time, somethings gone wrong and survival is bluntly best attempts.
Loading up the patrol with kit and ammo is a temporary net loss to those left protecting the patrol base of manpower, firepower, ammunition and specialist kit, so every attempt should be made to return.
just my 2p.

I completely agree with most of what you say.

It’s why I’m trying to understand what kit people think is being carried that could be left behind and in what scenario. I’d rather soldiers take a waterproof in 2° and raining weather than get hypothermic.

 

[Sarastro]

Don't agree. When we put the balloons up, the time spent laying a victim operated IED cost en a lot of lives.

...in comparison to the times you saw a VOIED laid, how long did it take to lay an RC-IED?

 

[Kroneit44]

...in comparison to the times you saw a VOIED laid, how long did it take to lay an RC-IED?

I don't have the experience to answer that. But you appear to be trying to negate the requirement to defeat the RCIED threat, which is what I have an issue with.

 

[old_bloke]

No, I’m asking what extraneous kit is being carried.

Not all patrols are equal. A point you seem at pains to ignore.

I have always thought , 1980 soildier , shite kit but did the job. 1943,44,45. The troops had what ? Basic kit, those in African, Europe had a rifle, a few rounds, a water bottle and basic kit. Three blankets and a ground cape . They managed.

 

[QRK2]

I don't have the experience to answer that. But you appear to be trying to negate the requirement to defeat the RCIED threat, which is what I have an issue with.

That 'requirement' is a product of CI campaigns and is of negligible significance in a 'proper' war, indeed carrying transmitters on permanent send carries its own risks against a modern enemy. Harping on about it in the context of full spectrum warfighting is a pretty good illustration of the mental inflexibility and ingrained mindset of too many British Army Officers.

 

[alfred_the_great]

That 'requirement' is a product of CI campaigns and is of negligible significance in a 'proper' war, indeed carrying transmitters on permanent send carries its own risks against a modern enemy. Harping on about it in the context of full spectrum warfighting is a pretty good illustration of the mental inflexibility and ingrained mindset of too many British Army Officers.

Not sure there are any serving British Army Officers or SNCOs on this thread…

 

[Dan Gleebles]

How did you get water? How much did you drink a day.

How do you get water in Norway?

Not sure if you’re being facetious.

 

[oldsoak]

How do you get water in Norway?

Not sure if you’re being facetious.

Is it SOP to use uncontrolled source for water for Norway ? I know the place does not lack streams, lakes and umpteen foot of snow.

 

[fraudstar]

I have always thought , 1980 soildier , shite kit but did the job. 1943,44,45. The troops had what ? Basic kit, those in African, Europe had a rifle, a few rounds, a water bottle and basic kit. Three blankets and a ground cape . They managed.

I’m sure there’s a point in there somewhere.

 

[fraudstar]

How do you get water in Norway?

Not sure if you’re being facetious.

Not at all, you said you didn’t carry any on the man and a stove (jet boil) was extraneous. So on a patrol, how did you collect and drink water. How much was drunk a day?

 

[Dan Gleebles]

Not at all, you said you didn’t carry any on the man and a stove (jet boil) was extraneous. So on a patrol, how did you collect and drink water. How much was drunk a day?

I never said a cooker, fuel and a receptical for melting snow/ice and boiling water were extraneous.

It just wasn’t carried once the bergan was dumped/ patrol base established. Then it’s extraneous.