Fighter aircraft fraud probe ends

#1
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6180945.stm


The Serious Fraud Office has ended its corruption inquiry into a £6bn fighter planes deal with Saudi Arabia.
Attorney General Lord Goldsmith said the SFO was "discontinuing" its investigation into Britain's biggest defence company, BAE Systems.

The probe had related to the Al Yamamah arms deal with Saudi Arabia. BAE has denied any wrongdoing.

Lord Goldsmith told the Lords he thought that a prosecution "could not be brought".

He said the decision had been made in the wider public interest, which had to be balanced against the rule of law.

Lord Goldsmith also told peers that Prime Minister Tony Blair had agreed that the continuation of the investigation would cause "serious damage" to relations between the UK and Saudi Arabia.

It emerged earlier this month that French and Saudi officials were in talks over a possible alternative deal, which could scupper the BAE sale
Well, that's the word from Lagos oooooops London.
 
#2
List of priorities:

1. Caving into blackmail from a undemocratic, autocratic, royal dictatorship.
2. Allowing the British legal system to 'run it's course'.
3. Blah blah.

Does the UK actually have a democracy? :x
 
#3
Playing devils advocate for a moment, would you rather they said no to it now, or produced a report, at tax payers expense, which resulted in the same outcome?
 
#4
Also - just because business here does not run along the lines of back-handers and gifts doesn't mean other parts of the world do things the same way. The Saudis have actually been V squeaky clean on Typhoon - might have been grubby in the past, but toeing the line these days - this has been one of the sticking points on this - a rather long time to come to light.
 
#5
Random_Task said:
Playing devils advocate for a moment, would you rather they said no to it now, or produced a report, at tax payers expense, which resulted in the same outcome?
Playing the realist for a moment, why has the taxpayer already had to cough up so much for an 'enquiry' to end like this?
 
#6
Mr_C_Hinecap said:
Also - just because business here does not run along the lines of back-handers and gifts doesn't mean other parts of the world do things the same way. The Saudis have actually been V squeaky clean on Typhoon - might have been grubby in the past, but toeing the line these days - this has been one of the sticking points on this - a rather long time to come to light.
So it's ok that British companies do so in order to get orders. Were the SFO investigating arabs or British people who set up slush funds to facilitate the gaining of orders.

On Five Live ( and just reiterated on News at 6) they said that Goldsmiths statement gave an intelligence reason for dropping the investigation, and discussed the possibility that the Saudis were going to withdraw their support to British Intelligence officers in the area.

Are we to kow tow to foreign governments in this way.

And I'm not going to mention the possibility of this government bowing and scraping to nice middle class possible faudsters
 
#7
That is how the real world works, has for a very long time and will no doubt continue to do so.

The only surprising thing here was that nobody stepped in to kill this pointless nonsense before now. Perhaps in best Nu-Labour traditions they hoped it would just go away if they ignored it for long enough.
 
#8
merkator said:
Random_Task said:
Playing devils advocate for a moment, would you rather they said no to it now, or produced a report, at tax payers expense, which resulted in the same outcome?
Playing the realist for a moment, why has the taxpayer already had to cough up so much for an 'enquiry' to end like this?
What would you rather the government did?
 
#9
So

It is utterly dispicable to beak the law by giving money in return for a bit of paper saying Your a Lord, or a knight, but "the way of the world" when breaking the law for pecunary gain for both the company and oneself.

Here is a prima facae reason to give the government one and yet posters - so ready to speak out in the cash for peerages row - keep schtumm.

I wonder why :roll:
 
#10
Why should BAe not bribe Arabs or other people if it done overseas and is the local 'custom' and wins a contract? Why should UK Plc loose out just so our tarnished leader can claim that Britain has the most ethical business people in the world?

I suggest that you have a little look at Africa and the effect of pretending that the world is a lovely place that respects fair play: China is bribing its way across the continent and as a result getting huge amounts of business and influence: all to the detriment of the 'West'.

Little 'liberals' (i.e. fascist left wingers) moan about global warming and how responsible they are because they cycle to work (ignoring the carbon cost of their little trips to Provence, Tuscany and the alpine ski resorts), while at the same time China is building a new coal-fired power station every week, and along with Russia is happily creating some of the most toxic and polluted areas in the world. And the effect of commuting daily by plane from Monaco to London compared with China? Zero. Does not even register.

Our friendly EU neighbours are at it. In rough order of (decending) criminality: France, Italy, Greece, Spain, Germany. The new members do not appear on my list yet as their levels of corruption are contained mainly within their own borders and are very primitive compared to the frog and eyetie scams.

So back to the topic: bugger the rest of the world, lets look after the UK (for once). I would rather a thousand frenchmen became unemployed (or better yet die from their syphillis) than one British Subject.
 
#11
Dread said:
Why should BAe not bribe Arabs or other people if it done overseas and is the local 'custom' and wins a contract? Why should UK Plc loose out just so our tarnished leader can claim that Britain has the most ethical business people in the world?

I suggest that you have a little look at Africa and the effect of pretending that the world is a lovely place that respects fair play: China is bribing its way across the continent and as a result getting huge amounts of business and influence: all to the detriment of the 'West'.

Little 'liberals' (i.e. fascist left wingers) moan about global warming and how responsible they are because they cycle to work (ignoring the carbon cost of their little trips to Provence, Tuscany and the alpine ski resorts), while at the same time China is building a new coal-fired power station every week, and along with Russia is happily creating some of the most toxic and polluted areas in the world. And the effect of commuting daily by plane from Monaco to London compared with China? Zero. Does not even register.

Our friendly EU neighbours are at it. In rough order of (decending) criminality: France, Italy, Greece, Spain, Germany. The new members do not appear on my list yet as their levels of corruption are contained mainly within their own borders and are very primitive compared to the frog and eyetie scams.

So back to the topic: bugger the rest of the world, lets look after the UK (for once). I would rather a thousand frenchmen became unemployed (or better yet die from their syphillis) than one British Subject.
Dread you are wrong, so very wrong...The Chinese are building a coal fired power station every four days, not every week. But only until 2012, so that's all right then.

So remember folks, it's still crucial that we all unplug our mobiles when they are charged, otherwise we are all doomed.

Otherwise Dread, spot on mate. :)
 
#13
Dread said:
Why should BAe not bribe Arabs or other people if it done overseas and is the local 'custom' and wins a contract? Why should UK Plc loose out just so our tarnished leader can claim that Britain has the most ethical business people in the world?

I suggest that you have a little look at Africa and the effect of pretending that the world is a lovely place that respects fair play: China is bribing its way across the continent and as a result getting huge amounts of business and influence: all to the detriment of the 'West'.

Little 'liberals' (i.e. fascist left wingers) moan about global warming and how responsible they are because they cycle to work (ignoring the carbon cost of their little trips to Provence, Tuscany and the alpine ski resorts), while at the same time China is building a new coal-fired power station every week, and along with Russia is happily creating some of the most toxic and polluted areas in the world. And the effect of commuting daily by plane from Monaco to London compared with China? Zero. Does not even register.

Our friendly EU neighbours are at it. In rough order of (decending) criminality: France, Italy, Greece, Spain, Germany. The new members do not appear on my list yet as their levels of corruption are contained mainly within their own borders and are very primitive compared to the frog and eyetie scams.

So back to the topic: bugger the rest of the world, lets look after the UK (for once). I would rather a thousand frenchmen became unemployed (or better yet die from their syphillis) than one British Subject.
In that case, we may as well torture people in camps elsewhere in the world because America and the rest of the world do it, we might as well just use car bombs against El Sadrs lot because they are doing the same. This is not aboout labour - who are at least complicit in the cover up, it is about taking the moral high ground when we talk about the French or Italians. As of right now they can point to us and say that we are just as bad as them - and at least they prosecute their scumbags sometimes.

If we can do it with the arabs, what is to stop us doing it internally, and for things other than selling. Put a little money the policemens way in order to get them to spend a little more time round a companies warehouses, give a little money to union reps to ignore shortfalls, or indeed to Health and Safety - after all, its all bollox isn't it.

Most of all it is about doing the right thing - If it is all right for one set of people not to follow the law, why should anyone else
 
#14
None of this was a problem until the present Government made it so by passing self satisfied legislation in 2003 having bowed to pressure from the International campaigns against corruption and the arms trade.

All well and good. Corruption is not healthy even though it is a way of life in many parts of the world. But you must have bilateral agreements and understandings between states to fight it for as Dread has correctly observed rabid national self interest starts at Calais. Always going to be on a loser going it alone.

So, having got the law in place there was, and still is, no clear Government policy even within the UK! Yet officials (the "Anti-Corruption Czar?") were allowed to go off on ridiculous international frolics to show how useful and what good value for money they are and to hell with the wider interests of UK plc

All they did was make themselves and the Government look even more like stupid clods. How the French must have laughed.

What naive peasants could possibly expect that the Royalty of the House of Saud would just stand still and allow itself be turned over by Inspector Knacker of ze Yard? Did they expect there to be no consequences or maybeee you just not theeenk? Muwahahahaha stupid English, we vomit all over your precious fighter deal!!

What a farce.
 
#15
And another thing.

Now we have backed down on this one - how many other times are Saudis going to threaten our Intelligence gathering capability when they want something. And what is to stop them threatening to cancel the deal in the future - after all the spares deal is worth a billion or so - whilst the arabs can stand the loss of buying new in a few years time.

And whats to stop the French offering a huge bung to get the Saudis to welch on the deal they have just signed and go with Rafeale after all
 
#16
Sven: We know that you secretly dream of another Lab-Lib coalition government, but please stop being so obtuse. By your same logic we may as well nuke all our enemies because we assisted in the dropping of the 2 nukes of WW2.

So what is a bribe? Taking someone out for a dinner? What instead of the local trattoria it's the Ivy and the bill for 2 people is 45,000 quid? Giving Christmas presents (one client has just spent 20,000 euros on gifts)? Is a desk tidy allowed (and if 22carat gold inlaid with Chopard or Cartier diamonds)?

Ultimately a company (and because you are obtuse, please realise that I am talking about a company, that is a legal entity, trying to make a profit from its activities) will only offer a bribe or other inducement if it will see a return on that investment. So long as gifts are registered with the company or in the case of directors, with the shareholders then where is the problem?

There are tax issues of course (fat gay Gordon even taxes Christmas dinners given by employers as a taxable benefit), but these can be resolved.
 
#17
Isn't it odd how the very same liberals that rant on about the precious 'sovereignty'of the murdering Butcher of Baghdad, suddenly expect us ignore local laws and customs when they don't reach their own naive expectations.
 
#18
Blogg said:
None of this was a problem until the present Government made it so by passing self satisfied legislation in 2003 having bowed to pressure from the International campaigns against corruption and the arms trade.

All well and good. Corruption is not healthy even though it is a way of life in many parts of the world. But you must have bilateral agreements and understandings between states to fight it for as Dread has correctly observed rabid national self interest starts at Calais. Always going to be on a loser going it alone.

So, having got the law in place there was, and still is, no clear Government policy even within the UK! Yet officials (the "Anti-Corruption Czar?") were allowed to go off on ridiculous international frolics to show how useful and what good value for money they are and to hell with the wider interests of UK plc

All they did was make themselves and the Government look even more like stupid clods. How the French must have laughed.

What naive peasants could possibly expect that the Royalty of the House of Saud would just stand still and allow itself be turned over by Inspector Knacker of ze Yard? Did they expect there to be no consequences or maybeee you just not theeenk? Muwahahahaha stupid English, we vomit all over your precious fighter deal!!

What a farce.
So we just say that we are the french but without the warm weather eh?? So its all right if I give some council bod a couple of thou to look at the tenders given by other companies


Mahahahaha - I vomit over the other companies who don't play the corruption game.


Or perhaps hospital cleaning contracts, or MOD contracts. Remember, if a company is corrupt enough bribe arabs it might be corrupt enough to pay for tenders and give out radios that don't work, weapons that don't work and equipment that is just shit.

But thats ok because the French and Italians do it
 
#19
Sven

It's simple, I and most people on this site do not like bribery in public office and expect very high standards from tjose people who we pay for.

However, when in Rome do as the Romans do.

Only don't expect those habits here.

The rest of the world has differing standards, we must do business with the rest of the world according to their standards, they should do business with us according to ours.
 
#20
mushroom said:
Sven

It's simple, I and most people on this site do not like bribery in public office and expect very high standards from tjose people who we pay for.

However, when in Rome do as the Romans do.

Only don't expect those habits here.

The rest of the world has differing standards, we must do business with the rest of the world according to their standards, they should do business with us according to ours.
Don't You think it smells a little that the company that is allegedly corrupt in one area supplied the forces with such duff equipment. If they are going to be fraudulent outside the country why on earth shouldn't they be corrupt inside it.

And why shouldn't we just bomb Sadr out of existance, why didn't we just take Adams and McGuiness to a wall and give them the good news in the back of the head - just like the IRA did with our own. I had the arguements with enough people at the time. Why did we all speak out against Abu Ghraib or the Marines who raped and murdered the girl or any of the other atrocities.

Come to that, since so many people are adamant that the Iraq war was about oil, why didn't we just pay Saddam a couple of billion to let us have sole purchasing powers - we would have saved So Much in the way of money and dead men.

It wouldn't even have been the government, BP could have done it all

:roll:


And finally, if we are corrupt outside the country - surely we have lost our standards and so should expect it inside the country
 

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