FFS.

#2
But the Police Federation defended the driving of Pc Milton, who is also known to have travelled at 120mph in a 60mph zone and at more than 60mph in a 30mph zone.

Speaking on the steps of the court, Insp Keith Howes, said: "Pc Milton was driving in accordance with his training, honing his skills while possible and testing the vehicle's capabilities so that if he was required on an urgent call he would be driving safely."

OK , So i am an Advanced driver, I am also trained in fire arms, but i am not in the police. Do you think i would have been able to get away with going that speed? I think not.

Ok he was seeing what the car can do, surely they have test tracks for that sort of thing. And you dont hone your skills on the road at going more than double the legal speed whilst putting every one in danger.
Even advanced drivers cannot say the actions of other idiots on the road, you have to second guess half the time.

He should be made to walk the beat, and loose his license at least.
 
#3
Got to agree AWOL. So, next time the beak drags me up for doing over the ton I can use this case as an example? My excuse could be 'I was honing my skills as a pilot by 'driving low level and at high speed simulating the effect of flying in a hostile environment..your honour...'

Was he on duty, on a shout? Was he cleared and authorised? Was he undergoing or giving instruction? When would a Police officer be required to ever drive at 159mph? I thought thats why they have helis now. Sounds like a big bag of bull.

My Black Rat traffic pals over at the Met tell me that they cannot drive above the speed limit unless they are on a call or on official training cleared by the appropriate channels.
 

Auld-Yin

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#4
It is always difficult to make a complete judgement from brief newspaper or media reports. However i find it difficult to empathise with this PC. he may be very highly trained in driving and skilled in the use of vehicles. But the other people using the roads certainly ain't and if he is travelling at that speed how can he react properly so someone else's driving?

The report also said he was trying out a new vehicle to find out its capabilities - so he drove a vehicle without knowing how it would handle. Public streets are not the place for that sort of training.

Im my very humble opinion, and going on what is ion the report - he should have been convicted as charged as it appears he was guilty as charged.

I know that this is a spurious argument but this could also apply to firearms officers with a new bundook, trying it out down the high street because he wants to know how it shoots around buildings with wind blowing in all directions. 'Honest m'lud, I was not shooting at anyone and I am a highly trained marksman.'
 
#5
Newsnight just reporting he did 84 in a 30 limit!! What's he got, a bloody forcefield around him?



Chunter, chunter, mumble, dribble....
 

Cutaway

LE
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#6
Well it would appear that District Judge Bruce Morgan has set a precedence.
Just got to have the Advanced Driver's cse up and we're away !

We'll be supported by "two police officers who gave evidence for the prosecution, including West Mercia Police's senior driving instructor, had declined to classify the defendant's driving as dangerous." After all, these two officers couldn't have been prejudiced just because he's also a copper, could they ?

Or perhaps Bruce Morgan is also in the habit of putting his foot down ?
You scratch my back...
 
#7
Some of West Mercia's drivers are bloody nutters - particularly when you consider just how rural some of their roads are - so I'd not consider their chief instructor much of a witness.
 
#8
Hypocrisy? Police?

Well if you wonder about that then may I suggest you apply for an FAC, or talk to them about the scale of policing of hunt saboteurs versus the scale of policing of the Countryside March/Rally...

Or possibly ask Ian Blair to make a non-partisan point during a General Election...

:x
 
#9
Humph! I got 3 points & GBP 40 for doing 50mph on a temporary 40mph stretch of an (aside from me) EMPTY 3 LANE 'A' ROAD! Then again, I consistently bust speed limits, so I'm not saying I'm hard done by, but hypocrisy is hypocrisy & this is a neon signed example of it. :evil:
 
#10
If there is any good news it's that he was bubbled by his own.

They replayed the on board video and shopped him for what they saw. The fact he got off (84 in a 30?!!) is quite frankly a sign of legal corruption :twisted:

He should now be taken off driving duties as he clearly can't exercise self control.
 
E

error_unknown

Guest
#11
It's worth noting that he did this 'in the early hours' of 5 December, i.e. at night, which makes it even worse, in my view, unless of course he was wearing some special NVG device which let him see beyond his own headlight beams.
 
#12
The most annoying thing about this is inconsistency. My mate (an advanced driver) driving on an authorized operation has just been stuck on by a county force for doing (wait for it) 34 in a 30 on a semi-rural road!

He'll almost certainly have it boshed, but it does illustrate the double standard, not to mention the paperwork.

As for this bloke, well you might take some crumbs of comfort from the fact that although the criminal justice system has taken it's course then the internal discipline system now gets it's bite of the cherry at him. And clearly his force aren't impressed...

V!
 
#13
Sabre said:
He should be made to walk the beat, and loose his license at least.
Agreed, so should Insp Keith Howes for trying to cover this with that inane excuse story.
 
#14
159mph and case dismissed? Unbelievable (except in BLiar's Britain)
159mph in a Vauxhall Vectra? Unbelievable
 
#15
Having re-read the story, the thing that is really inexcusable is his speeding in a 30 MPH zone.

I'm not an advanced driver, I'm the next one down from that (usually called "response") but I've driven with many "Class One's" on numerous shouts in both marked and unmarked vehicles. The better ones really are the dog's B's when it comes to driving extremely fast safely.

When the instructors couldn't bring themselves to say that this driver's conduct was dangerous was because it's a core part of police driving doctrine that you drive to the conditions of the road. You might agree or disagree with that, but that's the way the training works.

Having said that, when training (which was this guy's defence) police vehicles will abide by the speed limits in all areas except roads with the National Speed Limit. Then you drive to the speed the conditions safely allow, and to the driver's skill and ability. Therefore, this bloke is bang to rights for his conduct in the 30 MPH zone at least. He wasn't on a shout.

As somebody else said, here in the Met the advanced drivers are only allowed to drive like that when they are assigned a call, or if the advanced driver initiates a pursuit with a suspect vehicle (whereupon the control room gets involved, including making the increasingly common decision to terminate the pursuit).

Lastly, the civilian advanced driving qualification is in no way analogous to a police advanced driver. I was allowed to call myself a civilian advanced driver and claim the insurance discount after my driving course (and as I said, I'm not police advanced). The police advanced driver training is a month long and builds on the three week "response" course. Two weeks is high-performance driving skills and the other two is pursuit driving skills. The standard is high and they're not afraid to fail people.

Most police accidents involve "basic" panda car drivers or ambitious "response" drivers trying to chase people. Even more are caused by people not knowing how to respond when they see blue flashing lights in their rear view mirror (not a criticism, it's not really covered in the Highway Code except to say give way).

This story is really about the alienation between the law-abiding majority and the police, mainly due to politically-correct policing and ruthless revenue-gathering from GATSO cameras (discussed at length elsewhere on this forum). A few years back people would have been far more relaxed about this; after all he is technically qualified to drive that fast in certain circumstances.

A bit of devil's advocacy but yes, he should have been prosecuted for the 30 MPH offence.

V!
 
#16
Should be out catching real criminals, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
 
#17
Therefor given this precedent Idle:

Can I assume that we are to be assumed as the 'Creme de la creme' of the gun stuff club could I fall back on the 'I was familiarising myself with the post ND procedures as I have never actually had one'?

I hasten to add, I have actually never had one. :D
 
#18
I was hoping you'd respond Vegey, as an insider as it were.

Firstly I speed on motorways all the time. I drive up to 90mph depending on the conditions although I'm usually in the 80-90mph bracket because that is the realities of modern traffic flow on free running motorways. I feel strongly that with a modern car with ABS etc it is at least as safe as driving at 70 mph in a Morris Minor 40 years ago when limits were introduced. Despite this, if I get nicked, it's a fair cop, I know the rules and I'm choosing to break them so I'm not going to whinge about it.

Now, I don't blame the copper in this case for trying to wriggle out of a conviction. He was caught bang to rights, and faced losing his job and possibly house etc as a result. He was a t'wat and dangerous, but as he couldn't turn the clock back, it's human nature to try and minimise the damage on his day in court.

I don't even blame the fool of a judge. He's obviously living on Mars and has his head up his Arrse, but every now and then our justice system chucks up these anomalies and we just have to live with it as the price of having human beings making decisions.

No, my issue is with the Police Federation who supported this clown throughout the case. They should have recognised the obvious damage that this result is going to do to public/police relations. They know, as we all do, that this sort of speed is bloody dangerous and no amount of wriggling is going to change that. 159mph is dangerous on a runway, on a track, or anywhere and it's insulting our intelligence to tell us that a bit of training by a bloke in a black uniform is going to reverse the laws of physics. But perhaps treating us all like children is what modern policing is all about.

When I do get nicked, I'll take the points and I'll pay the fine. But believe me, I never again want to hear some sanctimonious Chief Constable (read Wiltshire) preaching about how 72 mph is 'lethal, regardless of the road conditions'.

Hypocrites.
 
#19
Awol said:
I was hoping you'd respond Vegey, as an insider as it were.
We aim to please.

Firstly I speed on motorways all the time. I drive up to 90mph depending on the conditions although I'm usually in the 80-90mph bracket because that is the realities of modern traffic flow on free running motorways. I feel strongly that with a modern car with ABS etc it is at least as safe as driving at 70 mph in a Morris Minor 40 years ago when limits were introduced. Despite this, if I get nicked, it's a fair cop, I know the rules and I'm choosing to break them so I'm not going to whinge about it.
My man with the white-topped hat tells me that TRAFPOL aren't interested in nicking people travelling at the speeds you describe. Which is why I'm so infuriated with GATSO: no discretion. I agree with you entirely.

Now, I don't blame the copper in this case for trying to wriggle out of a conviction. He was caught bang to rights, and faced losing his job and possibly house etc as a result. He was a t'wat and dangerous, but as he couldn't turn the clock back, it's human nature to try and minimise the damage on his day in court.
I genuinely can't believe what a touch this bloke had in court. I can't help but admire his audacity in an era of obtuse decisions against police in court. Saying that, stories like this just heighten the sense of alienation against police by those who's help we really need the most. I don't think he'll be speeding again in a hurry and as I said, let's see what his force Professional Standards department does next.

No, my issue is with the Police Federation who supported this clown throughout the case. They should have recognised the obvious damage that this result is going to do to public/police relations.
I have mixed feelings about the Federation (as a fully paid-up member). One the one hand you really have no one else to turn to when you're in the $hit with toss-bag management failing to back you up, and on the other they sometimes behave in a farcical 1970's trade union. We can't strike, I'm stuck with them, hey that's life.

They know, as we all do, that this sort of speed is bloody dangerous and no amount of wriggling is going to change that. 159mph is dangerous on a runway, on a track, or anywhere and it's insulting our intelligence to tell us that a bit of training by a bloke in a black uniform is going to reverse the laws of physics.
Hmmm. You can drive very fast safely. I spent several years buckling myself into area cars as an operator almost every other day, and I wouldn't have done it if I'd felt that the drivers were mongs. I've travelled along motorways at over 130 MPH on shouts, felt completely safe. Motorways, with their lack of junctions and good visibility really are the safest arena for Very Fast Driving. I agree 159 is pushing the envelope, though. This guy clearly sees himself as the Baron Von Richthofen of the West Mercia police and probably needed his wings clipped.

But perhaps treating us all like children is what modern policing is all about.
It's also the core premise of the society New Labour is trying to create.

When I do get nicked, I'll take the points and I'll pay the fine. But believe me, I never again want to hear some sanctimonious Chief Constable (read Wiltshire) preaching about how 72 mph is 'lethal, regardless of the road conditions'.
I don't listen to ACPO ranking officers anyway. They're Home Office apointees with an agenda. Period. I'm sure the Chief Constable of West Mercia is gutted about this decision and is currently despatching an accelerated promotion robot to formulate an Action Plan to stop anyone ever driving fast ever again. :: sigh ::

Look, Peter Mandelson. Hindujas. Alistair Campbell. David Kelly. Butler. Blunkett. Bernie Ecclestone. Iraq. Speeding Copper.... Our glorious leaders are the ones who set themselves a different standard more than any of us.

V!
 
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