FEMALE SOLDIERS - Have they improved Combat Effectivenes?

Discussion in 'Seniors' started by Ard-Elly-o, Dec 26, 2003.

  1. Reduced Combat Effectiveness.

  2. Made No Difference to Combat Effectiveness.

  3. Increased Combat Effectiveness.


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  1. This topic is not about having a go about Women in the Army, but a genuine question about Combat Effectiveness since the wider employment of women.

    Has the wider employment of women in the Armed Forces been of benifit to Combat Effectiveness in the British Army
    I consider Combat Effectiveness to be based on the individual and collective performance of soldiers in a unit, regardless of capbadge, to complete their mission in a combat environment and be prepared to close with and kill the enemy in either attack or defence.

    I have met a lot of top quality female tradesmen, excellent female officers and managers of personnel, brave, intelligent and fit female leaders all who wear the Queens uniform and have the distinct priveledge of bearing arms.
    Yet I have still to meet a woman soldier, SNCO or Officer who truly believes in the warrior ethos of the true professional soldier.

    Does "Force Protection" now mean the general issue of condoms to all or do we still expect and train our combat supports troops to survive in the field as soldiers and ultimately be prepared to penetrate the chest of the enemy with a bayonet to complete their mission in defence of their equipment and comrades.

    From my own experience I have seen the following:
    Female OC in a Div regt sub-unit. Best OC in Barracks you could want. Very fit, brilliant staff work and looked after the guys. Her management style was exceptional and she had the trust and respect of all her soldiers. BUT, she absolutely hated being in the field!. Thought drill was very silly and got out on redundancy.

    female soldiers on an Op who blatently said they "couldn't kill anyone and didn't want to be there!"

    female soldier who was awarded best soldier on a battle camp out of 167 blokes! And she was the best. Fit, confident, tough, best shot, full CFT (with helmets worn!).

    female troop commander who boasted that she passed the male BPFA at RMAS but couldn't keep up with (never mind lead) her troops on a run.

    From what I have observed, the wider employment of women has gradually eroded the physical and robust soldiering standards of the Other Arms and Services. They are subtly civilianising and softening our armed forces.

    Men and women that would have been weeded out in recruit training for not being physically or mentally robust enough for military service are now passed through the sausage factory to units.

    or have women been forced into wider employment in the army against their will (since the disbandment of WRAC) to fulfill some EU IIP/EO legislation. Good to hear the views from both sides.

  2. I voted yes. Sorry girls - but the quality since the WRAC was disbanded has been completely rubbish. There are 11 girls in my det and its heartbreaking to see what one or two of them get up to. Bad name to me, the girls that are good, and the general name of birds in the army. As as for women who want to hump shells around in the artillery? No way - I didn't join for that.

    By the way - I would have had no probs slotting someone out in Iraq. Or doing foot patrols!!! (Bastards!)
  3. Ventress

    Ventress LE Moderator

    I was always told girls have to be twice as good to be half as good as a bloke!
  4. I think equality means just that - there should be one fitness standard for all, with just and age weighting. Until that comes about combat effectiveness means far from that. I beat one of my female cfn on BPFA by 2 minutes yet she scored 100 points and I had to settle for 90-something.

    An AK47-wielding raghead doesn't differentiate between the sexes and nor does shrapnel.

    The examples usually cited of combat effective women (Isreal -various wars, Russia -WW2, Vietnamese) forget one major difference: they were all wars of defence/national survival. I'm sure many of women both in the army and out of it would be prepared to administer a large dose of cold steel to the invading horde as it advanced up the High Street toward Sainsbury's and TopShop, but taking the fight to the enemy in far-flung lands and fighting someone else's war? There I'm not so sure...
  5. I've met many good female soldiers and have worked for and with some real stars. These are in the minority however. I have to agree that most found doing even the remotest 'Army' type activity an offence to their femininity, questioning constantly why we did this, why do we have to do this, constantly complaining that this is stupid, I didn't join to do this etc, etc, etc,.

    I'm not trying to change the issue, but they are an incredible pain in the arrse when they become pregnant. At that stage, they question why they even have to come to work in the first place (and these are the stupid 19 yr olds who've been in for 10 minutes). This doesn't question whether their influence on combat effectiveness directly, but in a sense it does influence it. Blokes having to do female's jobs for them in peace time will expect to carry them in war time. It causes resentment.

    I've witnessed a female SSgt walk off an exercise and go home, as she thought it was a 'waste of time'. Nothing happened to her.

    I've watched the whiners constantly get promoted through the ranks and have asked myself why this is. Blokes who conducted themselves like that wouldn't get a look in. These women are then placed into a position of responsibility and influence. Now if they turn round and say 'fcuk this for a game of soldiers', what would you expect from their troops.......peacetime or war fighting?

    They might be great technicians, clerks, cooks, whatever........but I've met very few who willinglyaccepted that every now and then, they'd have to rough it.
  6. Ventress

    Ventress LE Moderator

    Sanchez hits the nail on the head! Rare but true!
  7. I think you will find that the BPFA is a gender fair assessment not a gender free test. You will also note that the assessment takes into account age. It cannot therefore be used to gauge an individual for promotion and should not feature on a report of any type. However the BFT is a gender free test (and age free test) everyone has to carry the same weight over the same distance in order to pass. This is based on a unit's role. It is therefore aligned (in a very remote way in some instances) to what any officer or soldier is likely to have to do physically as part of their job role regardless of sex or age. This can be used as a test for promotion and can be commented upon in ACRs. Boothroyd if indeed you are commissioned you should know the difference if you do not then the likelyhood is that you are doing someone a dis-service.

    Suggest you go on the Equal Opportunities Advisors course asap...by far one of the best courses run by defence.

    By your own admission you are willing to allow extra time/less press ups for age but not for females...your logic is somewhat warped here in a fair test everyone regardless of age, sex, colour or disability should compete to the same standards if they are to do the same job... yet you believe that because an individual is older then he/she should be allowed more time... that doesn't seem fair to me.
  8. I too have met and worked with some really terrific women in the Military. I firmly believe that women should not be allowed anywhere near the front line during a conflict. They dont have the physical strength of their male counterparts. Can you picture a 5'2'' female Para, carrying 80lbs on her back and tabbing from Goose Green to Stanley over that terrain, and being able to fight at the end of it??

    Female pilots are another problem. I dont believe that there should be any front line female fighter pilots (how do G-Forces affect females during the menstrual cycle.......can they perform??).

    Women definately have a place in the military, but not in a front line position.
  10. It seems obvious to me that the front line (a trickier place to define nowadays) is no place for a woman.
    I am suspicious however of your above stated belief that female fighter pilots are a problem due to their menstrual cycle.
    On what grounds? Have you evidence?
  11. Ard Elly O,

    So are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?

    The test as it stands is the fitness test as it stands. No one said it was the best judge of military capability. Its a great judge of wether an individual can walk/jog 8 miles carrying a determined amount of weight in a determined time and little else.

    My previous point was merely pointing out the wrong perception that everyman and his dog has about the BPFA. This is supposed to be an assessment in order that units can judge the areas of fitness that need addressing by their PT staff. I find it intolerable that individuals still consider this is the be all and end all test of fitness when quite clearly it is not. The only physical fitness test the Army currently imposes is the BCFT.
  12. Ventress

    Ventress LE Moderator

    I was amazed that a 18 year old girl still had longer than me as a 40 year odd old codger!- How is that fair? Made me run faster I suppose!
  13. http://hypertextbook.com/facts/1998/PhillipAndriyevsky.shtml
    Bugger!..are we sure this isn't just a modern male conspiracy to keep all the fun to themselves! :? 8)
    If it's true that female fighter pilots are safer pushing a Tescos trolley on a couple of days a month..she can catch up on her paperwork instead of flying. It's not sufficient reason to justify not appointing women at all.
  14. So we should ask all potential enemies not to be sexually discriminate and only attack when the female fighter pilots aren't on rag week.

    I'm sure they will comply, after all, I'm sure they could be brought before a tribunal of some sort if not.

    I have no problem in a woman fulfilling every role on the proviso the rules aren't bent to cater for weakness's or time of month, wan to be a soldier, pilot, matelot, no problem but don't expect the rest to adjust the beat of the drum to suit you!
  15. Soldier_Why

    Soldier_Why LE Moderator

    Or alternatively aren't there contraceptive pills which delay or stop the menstrual cycle?