Female preachers of Islam encourage hate and segregation

#1
HERE

Daily Telegraph said:
Preachers of separatism at work inside Britain's mosques

Britain's leading Muslim bodies say they are fighting extremism. In one of our most respected mosques, Sara Hassan came face to face with hardline female preachers of separatism. Here, she reports on the shocking results of her investigation

Last Updated: 1:13AM BST 31 Aug 2008

Female preachers encouraged segregation saying that 'Islam is keeping away from disbelief and from the disbelievers' Photo: CHANNEL 4
In a large balcony above the beautiful main hall at Regent's Park Mosque in London - widely considered the most important mosque in Britain - I am filming undercover as the woman preacher gives her talk.

What should be done to a Muslim who converts to another faith? "We kill him," she says, "kill him, kill, kill…You have to kill him, you understand?"

Adulterers, she says, are to be stoned to death - and as for homosexuals, and women who "make themselves like a man, a woman like a man ... the punishment is kill, kill them, throw them from the highest place".

These punishments, the preacher says, are to be implemented in a future Islamic state. "This is not to tell you to start killing people," she continues. "There must be a Muslim leader, when the Muslim army becomes stronger, when Islam has grown enough."

A young female student from the group interrupts her: the punishment should also be to stone the homosexuals to death, once they have been thrown from a high place.

These are teachings I never expected to hear inside Regent's Park Mosque, which is supposedly committed to interfaith dialogue and moderation, and was set up more than 60 years ago, to represent British Muslims to the Government. And many of those listening were teenage British girls or, even more disturbingly, young children.

My investigation for Channel 4's Dispatches came after last year's Undercover Mosque, which investigated claims that teachings of intolerance and fundamentalism were spreading through Britain's mosques from the Saudi Arabian religious establishment - which is closely linked to the Saudi Arabian government. In response, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia denied it was spreading intolerance, while Regent's Park Mosque, which featured in the film, urged all mosques to be "vigilant" and monitor what was taught on their premises.

So earlier this year, dressed in a full Islamic jilbaab, I went back to Regent's Park Mosque to see what was being taught there. As a woman, I had to go to the main female section, where I found this circle preaching every Saturday and Sunday, eight hours at a time, to any woman who has come to pray.

The mosque is meant to promote moderation and integration. But although the circle does preach against terrorism and does not incite Muslims to break British laws, it teaches Muslims to "keep away" and segregate themselves from disbelievers: "Islam is keeping away from disbelief and from the disbelievers, the people who disbelieve."

Friendship with non-Muslims is discouraged because "loyalty is only to the Muslim, not to the kaffir [disbeliever]".
A woman who was friendly with a non-Muslim woman was heavily criticised: "It's part of Islam, of the correct belief, that you love those who love Allah and that you hate those who hate Allah."

One preacher even says Muslims shouldn't live in Britain at all: "It is not befitting for Muslims that he should reside in the land of evil, the land of the kuffaar, the land of the disbelievers."

Another, Um Saleem, says Muslims should not take British citizenship as their loyalty is to Allah.

"Some conditions can take you into disbelief, to take the British citizenship, whether you like it or not, for these people, you are selling your religion, it's a very serious thing, it is not allowed to give allegiance to other than Allah."

Their teachings shocked me. This was not the Islam that I and many other Muslims in the UK were taught as youngsters, nor is it a version that most Muslims follow.

I was amazed at how many young British women seemed to find this version of the faith attractive. One young girl told me that when she first attended the circle, she was dressed in jeans and that she had many non-Muslim friends. She now loves only those that are around her - "other sisters in the circle" - and only engages with non-Muslims to try to convert them. Many of the sisters had the idea of living as a separate community - a concept alien to me and many other Muslims I know.

Regent's Park Mosque has a major interfaith department, which arranges visits from the Government, the civil service, representatives of other religions and thousands of British school children a year.

I watched as an interfaith group was brought in to meet the mosque's women's circle for a civilised exchange. But when the interfaith group wasn't there, the preacher attacked other faiths, and the very concept of interfaith dialogue.

One preacher said of Christians praying in a church: "What are these people doing in there, these things are so vile, what they say with their tongues is so vile and disgusting, it's an abomination." As for the concept of interfaith live-and-let-live: "This is false. It does not work. This concept is a lie, it is fake, and it is a farce."

Like many of the other women at the circle, I was soon invited to private sessions in houses around London, to "learn more" about Islam - or their version of Islam. Um Saleem was also at some of these sessions. Here, the women were given strict restrictions on their lives: it is reiterated that British Muslim women cannot travel far without a male guardian, cannot mix with men, and have to remain fully covered up at all times.

One woman in the audience queried the strict rulings that she cannot travel without a mahram - a male member of the family - escorting her. She asked: "Sister, if me and my husband, we can't go together, what do I do if I want to go?"

She was told she cannot travel by herself.

She asked again: "So what do I do?"

"You go with your husband," Um Saleem replied.

There were also restrictions on education or work opportunities. One woman, who works for the NHS, was told she should leave her job as it meant mixing with men and not wearing a full Islamic garment.

"You know that working in an environment that is not Islamic, working with the kuffaar, all this takes you away from the religion and hardens your heart and it would be lying to you if I say it's OK," Um Saleem explained.

Um Saleem also criticised Muslim women who integrate into society - a view that is counter to the aims of the Regent's Park Mosque.

"You see Muslims in every sphere of everyday life in this country, I see Muslims, it breaks my heart when I see them working in banks, short sleeves, tight scarf like this, make-up, being with the kuffaar all the time, even speaking their language," she said.

The director general of Regent's Park Mosque is Dr Ahmed Al Dubayan, a Saudi diplomat. He has denied to Dispatches that his mosque promotes the Saudi version of the faith, often called Wahhabism. And indeed, the imams in the main hall are Egyptian, and the sermons I heard from them were tolerant and moderate when you listen to them on Fridays.

But the preachers I heard in the women's section took their theology directly from Saudi Arabia. One of them had recently returned from three years of study in Saudi Arabia, and the other preachers almost exclusively directed me to the works, sermons, fatwas and online sites of the scholars of the Saudi Arabian religious establishment and their adherents.

Confronted with these female preachers' comments, Dr Al Dubayan insisted that the views did not reflect those of the Regent's Park Mosque, and that Um Saleem was not an authorised teacher. "The ICC [the London Central Mosque and Islamic Cultural Centre, most commonly referred to as the Regent's Park Mosque] is committed to interfaith and cross-cultural understanding," he said. "It does not support or condone extreme views, racial hatred, violence or intolerance."

He said one of the preachers we filmed was unknown to him. Another, Um Saleem, had requested permission to be an authorised teacher at the mosque, but had been refused, as she did not supply references and written information about her teachings and views. Until I contacted him, both he and the mosque had not known of her teachings and views.

Um Saleem later told me that her comments that Muslims could not take British citizenship were "erroneous" and indeed apologised for them. As for comments that Muslims cannot live in a non-Muslim country, she agreed that the language used was "inappropriate". She continued: "Whilst it is recommended for a Muslim to migrate to a Muslim country, it is not obligatory."

She added: "We are not blind followers of any government or any 'clerics'. We do criticise other religions, just as other religions criticise Islam…we encourage integration into society."

However, she stood by some of her other claims, stating that the rulings that women could not travel alone, and could not work if it conflicted with religious requirements, were "totally justified by Islamic texts".

"You may regard these juristic and textual rulings as 'extreme restrictions'," she said. "But we see them as our way of life and a liberation of the soul."

The Mosque's official bookshop was another focus for the Dispatches film last year when our reporters discovered intolerant and fundamentalist DVDs.

Dr Al Dubayan said they would be removed pending an investigation, but I found the same fundamentalist preachers' works still openly displayed and sold there. DVDs preaching that disbelievers are "evil, wicked, mischievous people ... they do the most evil, filthy things"; that men are in charge of women and should control them.

One speaker says of the Jews: "Their time will come, like every other evil person's time will come." Another speech, this time by Sheikh Khalid Yasin, who learned Arabic in Saudi Arabia, praised the deterrent effect of sharia law: "Then people can see, people without hands, people can see in public heads rolling down the street, people got [sic] their hands and feet from opposite sides chopped off and they see them crucified…they see people put up against the pole and see them get lashed in public they see it, and because they see it, it acts as a deterrent for them because they say I don't want that to happen to me."

Sheikh Yasin responded to me that his comments should be considered in context. He said he did not support or promote Saudi Arabian government policy or religious rhetoric, and said capital punishments were carried out by many states and governments. "The lecture was aimed at reforming the Muslim people, the Muslim society and the Muslim world … to be adjudicated by the Sovereign Islamic State" when one exists.

The company that runs the bookshop, Darussalam International Publications, is a British company with links to Saudi Arabia.

Darussalam International Publications told me that the bookshop sells a wide range of material which they "do not necessarily agree with".

It said: "We try to represent a variety of... opinions through the products we sell…in order to spread peace, respect, tolerance and understanding."

Dr Al Dubayan reiterated that the bookshop was run by an independent company. "Despite having no control over the bookshop, we met with those running the bookshop after your programme was broadcast. We made it clear that it was not acceptable for the bookshop to stock materials containing extremist views. We were assured … all offending material had been removed."

Interviewees for the film explained that an ideology like this has spread throughout Britain's mosques from the Saudi Arabian religious establishment. One leading Muslim figure told me: "Petrodollar money coming from Saudi Arabia has basically distorted the growth and development of the Muslim community in Britain"; while a British imam accuses them of distorting Islam - "the abuse and misuse of this great faith of mine".

I share the imam's outrage at the way a peaceful monotheistic religion - so close to Christianity and Judaism in its essential beliefs - has been hijacked. To hear a call for the killing of someone because of his or her sexuality or for changing their faith in what is meant to be a place of contemplation is truly shocking.

The imam went on to say: "The underlying motive here is to find a way of continuously implanting this permanent wedge between the wider British society and the younger Muslims living in Britain."

As Professor Anthony Glees, who runs the Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies at Brunel University, explains: "To think, as I believe our government thinks, that it makes ideological sense to play patsy with the Saudi government is folly of the first order of magnitude. We will be paying for it for years to come."

The reporter's name has been changed.
'Dispatches: Undercover Mosque - The Return' will be broadcast on Channel 4 at 8pm on Monday 1 September 2008.
 
#2
If they have such a problem with the way we live our lives, why live here?

If they don't want to be tollerant of our ways why should we tollerat theirs? Saudi Arabia lives by Muslim Law, but I bet if they went there they wouldn't be happy, losing all their benefits and the protection that our country offers.

Is there a way we can fight/control preaching like this? They would pull the racist card if we did but surely this is racist towards us.
 
#3
Cow said:
If they have such a problem with the way we live our lives, why live here?

If they don't want to be tollerant of our ways why should we tollerat theirs? Saudi Arabia lives by Muslim Law, but I bet if they went there they wouldn't be happy, losing all their benefits and the protection that our country offers.

Is there a way we can fight/control preaching like this? They would pull the racist card if we did but surely this is racist towards us.
Exactly. The woman herself even says it is wrong to live in the UK, so why not pass round the shemagh and start heading back home?
 
#5
I hope arrests follow this and quickly. I don't care if the information was gathered surreptiously and I don't care if this stirs up unrest. This is out of order.

What worries me more is that that these preachings have obviously being going on for some time and one must surmise, no-one from the Muslim community listening to it has made a complaint about it.

Now if that statement is wrong and there have been complaints, why haven't the Police done anything about it? Pretty cut and dried if the report is correct - this is hate crime.

Either way, some people should be behind bars quickly.
 
#6
in_the_cheapseats said:
I hope arrests follow this and quickly. I don't care if the information was gathered surreptiously and I don't care if this stirs up unrest. This is out of order.

What worries me more is that that these preachings have obviously being going on for some time and one must surmise, no-one from the Muslim community listening to it has made a complaint about it.

Now if that statement is wrong and there have been complaints, why haven't the Police done anything about it? Pretty cut and dried if the report is correct - this is hate crime.

Either way, some people should be behind bars quickly.
Out of the question, it could be deemed as racist.
 
#8
Fifth_Columnist said:
Because the long game is to make Great Britain into an Islamic state, and that can only be achieved from within...
I used to date a muslim woman who I am still friends with. She says exactly that and it worries her. She likes living in a secular society. She should, these people would have her killed.

I hate the whole idea of imposing religious laws on others. If someone chooses to obey them, that is fine. So long as it is elective, crack on. Try making it compulsory and it is time to fight.

Fundies bug me. They have completely stopped thinking for their-self and demand that everyone else does the same. Bloody robots!
 
#9
in_the_cheapseats said:
I hope arrests follow this and quickly. I don't care if the information was gathered surreptiously and I don't care if this stirs up unrest. This is out of order.

What worries me more is that that these preachings have obviously being going on for some time and one must surmise, no-one from the Muslim community listening to it has made a complaint about it.

Now if that statement is wrong and there have been complaints, why haven't the Police done anything about it? Pretty cut and dried if the report is correct - this is hate crime.

Either way, some people should be behind bars quickly.
If arrests are made, who do you think will be arrested? Remember the last time this happened. Preachers where filmed preaching hate and it was the programme makers that got targeted by our law enforcement community.
 
#11
Perturbed said:
in_the_cheapseats said:
I hope arrests follow this and quickly. I don't care if the information was gathered surreptiously and I don't care if this stirs up unrest. This is out of order.

What worries me more is that that these preachings have obviously being going on for some time and one must surmise, no-one from the Muslim community listening to it has made a complaint about it.

Now if that statement is wrong and there have been complaints, why haven't the Police done anything about it? Pretty cut and dried if the report is correct - this is hate crime.

Either way, some people should be behind bars quickly.
If arrests are made, who do you think will be arrested? Remember the last time this happened. Preachers where filmed preaching hate and it was the programme makers that got targeted by our law enforcement community.
I was hoping that lessons would have been learnt after that court case got shot down. Perhaps having to deal with their own internal problem may focus the mind of the Met at least. Their robust approach to their own Assistant commissioner Tarique Ghaffur (poor, prejudiced and sidelined No3 in the force...my heart bleeds) this week gave me hope.
 
#12
Well the Labour party is the enemy within so it's no suprise they have let another one flourish. There was a time when i was quite a liberal soul now i can empathise with men who used to hang around large holes carrying gmpg's all thanks to nulab.
 
#13
Britain will never be an Islamic state, nor will it ever return to any form of religious fundamentalism. Enlightenment cannot be shaken off by a bunch of savages.
 
#14
PoisonDwarf said:
Britain will never be an Islamic state, nor will it ever return to any form of religious fundamentalism. Enlightenment cannot be shaken off by a bunch of savages.
Are you certain? What if the fundies outnumber rational people eventually? They are outbreeding normal folks ATM.
 
#15
PoisonDwarf said:
Britain will never be an Islamic state, nor will it ever return to any form of religious fundamentalism. Enlightenment cannot be shaken off by a bunch of savages.
A bunch of savages back by the government, judiciary, Liberty and any other misguided pillock with a soapbox?. I'll give it fifteen years.

PS Will ex-Toms with knackered knees be excused prayers?
 
#16
squiffy_parsons said:
Yet again Muslims are caught preaching hate and murder and yet again this crap Government will do sod all about it as they rely on the Muslim vote at elections. :roll:
Almost spot on, some Muslims are preaching hate and murder

The problem is not the preachers quoted in the article or the fact that Regents Park and many other Mosques quite obviously pay lip service to reports such as this and assurances of cleaning up their act. The problem is the West and their weak governments. For people who come from or originate in many cases from authoritarian households and communities this is a sign of how much they hold the Western system in contempt and see no consequences for their actions. This is in stark contrast to how serious many of their “home” governments would take an insult to their way of life and how robustly they would get the message across.

The British government and most western governments are seen as a joke and weak by many in the Middle East and places like Pakistan. Guilty hand wringing, multiculturalism and the horror of "causing offence" is a huge neon lit sign which says (to their eyes) "we are weak, walk all over us" Unlike their countries of origin, they will not face the same punishment for inciting hatred or looking to overthrow the established order etc. Some would argue this is the West’s great pride that we are tolerant and allow freedom of speech, which we should rightly be proud of. However the West’s continued appeasement of those who quite starkly cross the line is simply encouragement to the kind of hate mongers quoted above.

If you invite people to your house, welcome them and feed them but they subsequently stand in the corner, refusing to speak to anyone else, spitting on the floor, and wish ill on the host. In all cases you ask them to leave or start acting like a guest and respect your home. I am not talking about infantile "send them packing" BNP claptrap but the point is that in the UK you have guests who know they can spit on the floor and abuse everyone else in the room but the host will apologise profusely while the other guests mumble and say nothing, apart from post on websites when they get home of their outrage.

This is a problem of the UK's making, a result of allowing this to happen and apologising! In the eyes of many hate preachers and their fellow travellers, the UK is a soft touch and as a result weak, this just goes to illustrate to them that the western system is so contemptible that westerners and both their way of life and hospitality can be walked all over and spat upon with no consequences. Is it any wonder in their warped minds they are convinced of the West’s slow downfall and eventual rise of an Islamic state?


Instead of getting frustrated with the clowns in the article why not start thinking closer to home and why people from such backgrounds and abhorrent goals are so vocal and are given free reign? How do you think this has evolved? Could it be that the appeasement by local and national politicians with a tenuous grip on the outside world formed in Students Unions has poured fuel on the fire. A problem very much of the British governments making, a government who are responsible to the electorate.... Ahh now that goes a long way to explaining things....
 
#17
Vonshot said:
squiffy_parsons said:
Yet again Muslims are caught preaching hate and murder and yet again this crap Government will do sod all about it as they rely on the Muslim vote at elections. :roll:
Almost spot on, some Muslims are preaching hate and murder

The problem is not the preachers quoted in the article or the fact that Regents Park and many other Mosques quite obviously pay lip service to reports such as this and assurances of cleaning up their act. The problem is the West and their weak governments. For people who come from or originate in many cases from authoritarian households and communities this is a sign of how much they hold the Western system in contempt and see no consequences for their actions. This is in stark contrast to how serious many of their “home” governments would take an insult to their way of life and how robustly they would get the message across...
Yes it is only "some", not everyone. The thing is who puts their point across strongest? British born muslims exploding on London transport indicates to me that the radicals are winning. Those gits had every opportunity to educate and better themselves but they chose to explode in hatred of the country they was born in.

Islam is radicalising and we should be prepared. The idiocy beggars belief. Recently I pointed a few muslims I work with to idiotic claims. They just wont accept it.
 
#18
Well the overcrowding problem will be solved when this place turns into a repeat of the balkans unpleasantness. Good old Maggie Thatcher the forward thinking genius she is has provided us with lots of unused mine shafts for disposal
 
#19
One preacher even says Muslims shouldn't live in Britain at all: "It is not befitting for Muslims that he should reside in the land of evil, the land of the kuffaar, the land of the disbelievers."
Stop complaining, and get her a peak time TV slot.
 

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