"Fall of Musa Qala is a huge setback for Britain"

#3
What an amazing coincidence.

Less than 24 hours after this in the Times:

US to retake abandoned Taleban town

American forces in Afghanistan are poised to attempt to recapture the town of Musa Qala, which was abandoned by British forces in November after more than two months of heavy fighting against the Taleban General Dan McNeill, who is about to take over as commander of Nato’s International Security Assistance Force in Afghanistan, is believed to be ready to order US troops into the town — a key spot in the opium smuggling route in northern Helmand — amid fears that it is now back under Taleban control.

Cont/...
Looks like the Talebn are saying to the septics - BRING IT ON!
 
#4
Bearing in mind the lack of support, equipment etc, I'd say it was a good tactical decision in the short term.

For as long as Bliar, Swiss et al tell the General he can have anything he wants yet fail to deliver, we will lose more and more ground to the Taliban until we leave... again.
 
#5
Genuine ignorance on my part here, but what exactly are we aiming for in afghanistan?
total eridication of taleban? seems unlikely no matter how much ground we control as we are foriegn army, the ANA would have to do that.
wipe out drug trade? surely will just leave more unfriendlies around and add to poor image of foriegners
or something else?
 
#6
merkator said:
American forces in Afghanistan are poised to attempt to recapture the town of Musa Qala, which was abandoned by British forces in November after more than two months of heavy fighting against the Taleban General Dan McNeill
Really quite severely in need of a full stop there somewhere.
 
#7
Musa Qala was a waste of time and resources. It's in the middle of nowhere and is a complete shithole. It has no tactical relevance as far as i can see. The only reason we didn't pull out straight away on Herrick 4 was because those 'high up' said it would be seen as a victory for the Taliban if we left. Let the Taliban keep it! There's fuckall worth having there anyway and it serves no purpose to hold onto it. There are many more routes the Taliban can usefor smuggling opium.
 
#9
To be honest for a moment, mission objectives in Afghanistan are extremely blurred as to be critically unrealistic, probably unachievable.

For any sustainable objective outcome requires a cohesive joined up governance and that cannot currently be provided can it? Division and inward factional fighting is the hallmark of this country if one reads its history.

I remember talking with a Major from RGBW just before their deployment to Afghanistan. He was very upbeat about it all and showed me a map of their immediate TAOR to be followed by deployments South.

I asked him about their mission’s objectives and he stated that it was a mixture of hearts and minds and restructuring and disrupting the opium flowing to the West.

So, what are the mission’s objectives and can they be achieved?

If it is the defeat of the Taliban then on current evidence the objective is ‘not doable’ or unachievable because to accomplish that would require reversing current international policy that proclaims Pakistan an ally.

Musharrif of Pakistan has indicated that he is unable or unwilling to neutralise the border tribal regions, where the Taliban recruit, train and make their incursions.

For the mission to eliminate the Taliban to prove successful (and even then its outcome would be doubtful) it seems patiently obvious that it would require a major air and ground assault on the Pakistani tribal regions and that just is not going to happen.

This begs the question of the ability to accomplish the only other two possible mission objectives.

How can you pacify the towns and villages where the Taliban sustains themselves and ask the elders to support the mission? The most moderate of these towns are caught between the Taliban and coalition forces surely?

In addition, how can you win a hearts and minds programme when the coalitions programme calls for the destruction of the opium crops that have sustained these people for generations – you become the enemy twice over do you not?

If the town and village elders are to reject the Taliban precisely what measure of security and protection can the distant Afghan Government or coalition forces offer them?

I think the news item that started this thread demonstrates the answer perfectly. The elders have paid a heavy price for their efforts to support the coalition and their town has been ransacked.

If you are going to destroy the crops that have sustained these people for generations, what can the coalition offer as a long-term sustainable alternative?

So given the aforementioned, what are we asking brave young men and women to risk their lives for? Surely they are merely delaying the inevitable and are paying a heavy price for doing it.
 
#10
I agree. Afghanistan will be a thorn in our side for many years to come. On the plus side, it gives our troops experience in combat and is an excellent training area for the British army. The lessons we learn there will help immensely in the years to come on the war on terror which can only spread.
 
#11
i do wonder how many people have given thought to what is happening in afghan and what we are trying to achieve. Surely to most it would seem that we are trying to do something impossible. The pakistan mob will not enforce rule and order on the borders becuase it is not in thier interests too, and who can blame them. the farmers will not stop growing opium becuase it is by far and away the most finicially viable crop available and many time more profitable than its nearest legal option.
Slightly daft idea maybe but surely afghanistan is best broken down into states for purposes of law and order, as they are far more controllable and much more orientated along ethnic lines.
 
#12
Fallschirmjager said:
I agree. Afghanistan will be a thorn in our side for many years to come. On the plus side, it gives our troops experience in combat and is an excellent training area for the British army. The lessons we learn there will help immensely in the years to come on the war on terror which can only spread.
Fallschirmjager…Generally speaking you may be right that Afghanistan is solid training for the British Army but I doubt is values are worth the cost.

As The Chief of Staff said, he needs a sustainable deployable force for the foreseeable future and not just for the ‘just now’ expediency.

I rather doubt that we’re anywhere near close enough to accepting what the real future shape of ‘the global war on terror’ will be but I suspect that in fighting it, we will need to adopt unconventional and more covert means if we’re to be successful.

I think that we can safely assume for example, that it will not shape up with any resemblance to what we’ve seen so far in Afghanistan and Iraq although doubtless some valuable ground work is being achieved.

For instance, gloves off shall we? There’s really no such think as a comfortable mainstream assimilation of the Muslim population, what unites them and what divides us?

A Muslim is born not converted and nationalities are irrelevant to them, what unites them is their faith system and its teachings! What divides us? Our secular parliamentary democracy and laws passed or rescinded by our parliament, our values, our culture, our society and our way of life.

Evidence? One look at just how many devout Muslims serve in the police and much less the Armed Forces should be enough evidence for a reasonable man.

Meanwhile, we have the evidence of several Islamic fuelled terror attacks and multiple serious terror plots that have been foiled or disrupted be the security services and the police – devout Muslim UK citizens who stand ready to commit mass murder upon the rest of the population in the name of their Jihad.

So, we have to fight the global war on terror right here at home, amongst a community that simply cannot bring itself to condemn those among them who plot to massacre and mutilate their fellow citizens and with inadequate resources to confront it – evidence the urgent need for the MI5 in seeking to recruit vast numbers of operatives to keep pace with the threat levels.

Globally, I perceive that it will be necessary for UKSF to infiltrate countries and states to summarily eliminate terror cells and threats with or without the support and consent of their governments.

I think we’re in for a bumpy ride Fallschirmjager because we are going to have to confront some unpleasant realities in the near future, to cut of the oxygen of existence to some of these terror groups it is going to be necessary to confront those regimes that sustain, encourage, supply and support them to whatever degree and that’s going to have to include doctrinally too.
So are we really ready to confront the harsh realities of confronting regimes like the Saudis and Kuwaitis and Pakistanis to name just a few?

To really confront the monster that global terror has become will require us to go truly globally proactive and to do bizarre things in the narrow foreign streets and Bazaars of far flung places. And yes, of course you are right, the global terror war is set to spread!
 
#13
Bert_Preast said:
merkator said:
American forces in Afghanistan are poised to attempt to recapture the town of Musa Qala, which was abandoned by British forces in November after more than two months of heavy fighting against the Taleban General Dan McNeill
Really quite severely in need of a full stop there somewhere.
You may well be right.

Since you seem so agreaved by such a dreadful lapse in grammar (that you feel the need to bring it to ARRSE's attention), maybe you would like to address you complaint to the true perpetrator. Have you had a lapse in 'attention to detail' too?

Contact details for The Times can be found on their website or calling Directory Enquiries.
 
#14
Fallschirmjager said:
I agree. Afghanistan will be a thorn in our side for many years to come. On the plus side, it gives our troops experience in combat and is an excellent training area for the British army. The lessons we learn there will help immensely in the years to come on the war on terror which can only spread.
A superb reason for staying in Afghanistan there Falls. Certainly would be great army training territory that's for sure.
Trouble is would the natives there be prepared to be killed on a regular basis as part of on going training exersizes?

One wouldn't be able to classify their deaths on British army exersizes as 'collateral damage' as their deaths wouldn't be due to the natural wastage that occurs during any military industrial manufacturing process.
Their deaths would be deliberate as might happen during a weapons sights adjustment procedure before going on an exercise proper.

No I'm afraid until a proper legal 'status of native' can established your idea will have to await further developments before being taken forward.

However, now that you have raised what sounds at first blush a dammed good idea I shall write to my M.E.P. and see if he could arrange to include a new European directive re classifying Afghan people as a category of game and hence excluded from the Human Rights Act.
 
#15
SLRboy said:
Fallschirmjager said:
I agree. Afghanistan will be a thorn in our side for many years to come. On the plus side, it gives our troops experience in combat and is an excellent training area for the British army. The lessons we learn there will help immensely in the years to come on the war on terror which can only spread.
A superb reason for staying in Afghanistan there Falls. Certainly would be great army training territory that's for sure.
Trouble is would the natives there be prepared to be killed on a regular basis as part of on going training exersizes?

One wouldn't be able to classify their deaths on British army exersizes as 'collateral damage' as their deaths wouldn't be due to the natural wastage that occurs during any military industrial manufacturing process.
Their deaths would be deliberate as might happen during a weapons sights adjustment procedure before going on an exercise proper.

No I'm afraid until a proper legal 'status of native' can established your idea will have to await further developments before being taken forward.

However, now that you have raised what sounds at first blush a dammed good idea I shall write to my M.E.P. and see if he could arrange to include a new European directive re classifying Afghan people as a category of game and hence excluded from the Human Rights Act.
I think you'll find the majority of the Taliban are not afgan but pakistan in origin, I think you'll also find Falls knows a tadge more on this subject than even you.
 
#16
The government (and its allies in Afg, for that matter) face 2 alternatiives in Afghanistan: do the job properly, or leave it alone.

At the moment a 3rd approach is being acted out - deploying a token military force, with token nation-building behind it. Neither enough to inflict decisive defeat on the Taliban, nor to redeem the country bit-by-bit where the Taliban are suppressed or at bay.

The situation at Musah Qalah is a direct result, and unless some real effort is put behind this operation (to include sorting out the Talib in Pakisatan - easier said than done) it is going nowhere.

Even if the effort in Afhanistan were to succeed in restoring peace, stability and prosperity in Afg, bring an end to Taliban bullying and end the AQ presence in the country - would even that achievement (particularly given 5+ yrs of Western govts not really trying to make progress) make an appreciable contribution to increasing our own domestic security?
 
#17
SLRboy said:
Fallschirmjager said:
I shall write to my M.E.P. and see if he could arrange to include a new European directive re classifying Afghan people as a category of game and hence excluded from the Human Rights Act.
Taliban are not the Afghan population so give your head a massive wobble, unless of course you think the Taliban should be spared.
 
#18
Fallschirmjager said:
SLRboy said:
Fallschirmjager said:
I shall write to my M.E.P. and see if he could arrange to include a new European directive re classifying Afghan people as a category of game and hence excluded from the Human Rights Act.
Taliban are not the Afghan population so give your head a massive wobble, unless of course you think the Taliban should be spared.
Most of the Taliban are most definitely Afghan. They are drawn from the Afghan refugee camps put through the madrasses and sent back to their homelands to fight.
Which of course they wouldn't have left had the place not been invaded.

Being a Taliban is an religious/ideological phenomena though rather than a racial one.
First originating amongst Afghans and encouraged and financed by the C.I.A. to fight the Soviets during their occupation of course.
But then you knew that didn't you?
 
#20
Fallschirmjager said:
Yes i did know that. But still, the Taliban are not the Afghan population unless you believe all Afghans are Taliban!
Sorry mate I'm having trouble understanding you.
have a look at this re written sentence and you might see why.

"But still, the Conservatives are not the British population unless you believe all British are Conservatives." See the problem?
 

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