F35 - Money well spent.

Far from certain that the termination decision was the wrong one.

The Raptor programme was conceived as a counter to the (at the time) "scary" Fulcrum and Flanker, with their airshow manoeuvres and long range BVR AAM, which were a step change from the Flagon/Flogger/Foxbat/Foxhound of the 70s and 80s.

Trouble was, by the time they'd solved the development issues (supercruise, unstable FBW, vectored thrust, LO materials etc), the main threat had collapsed and the new threats weren't really on the horizon. While there were exported Fulcrum/Flanker variants to counter, experience had shown that unless operated by peer/near-peer threats, they weren't going to be enough of a problem to justify several hundred brand-spanking new uber-fighters costing a gazillion dollars each.

In some ways the cousins may have dodged a bullet. The component equipments in those aircraft are nigh-on twenty years old now and possibly not as supportable as one might like. Supporting hardware and software of that vintage is not cheap. At least the F15 and F16 have remained supportable through export-led upgrades and slow pensioning off to AMARC.

Arguably, NGAD and FA XX could have been pulled forwards so they weren't quite so far off, but it's not as if the oppo are fielding clouds of Firefox at the minute.
I have read that the F-22 requires an excessive amount of maintenance and this was true from introduction. It was questionable as to whether a squadron could be kept operational at reasonable levels of capability under war time conditions as opposed to during an exercise.

The F-35 apparently corrected a lot of the problems of the F-22 with respect to maintainability. With dog fighting seen as being on its way out any supposedly better manoeuvrability of the F-22 was not seen as important. Any features of its electronics or software which were considered important could be added to the F-35 later if required.

I've also read that a big part of the decision to cancel the F-22 came down to people realizing that with no major immediate threat they would rather wait for the F35 which was then in the pipeline than continue to buy F-22s.
 
The F22 community - who in exercises where BVR was forced (ie not allowed to kill everything BVR - so they can train at WVR) - have come out acknowledged Rafale and Typhoon are threats in WVR - which isnt saying a lot but confirms the aircraft have achieved kills in reasonable circumstances.

As opposed to the Indian Airforces (unproffessionally) boasted about 8 - nil victory over RAF Typhoons - which when the truth is dug out transpires to have been Typhoon playing moving target to whilst radar controllers and Indian pilots practiced procedures.

Scoring a couple of kills WVR in Red Flag under controlled scenarios is very different to saying “Typhoon will kill F22 in a dogfight”. Especially when there’s zero context about how many kills the F22 scored in return.

Under the correct scenario a Spitfire will out-turn and kill an F22 in a dogfight. Doesn’t mean the comparison holds much value.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
Scoring a couple of kills WVR in Red Flag under controlled scenarios is very different to saying “Typhoon will kill F22 in a dogfight”. Especially when there’s zero context about how many kills the F22 scored in return.

Under the correct scenario a Spitfire will out-turn and kill an F22 in a dogfight. Doesn’t mean the comparison holds much value.
Hm. I did add context.

Want to add some knowledge?
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
A mistake indeed. Thanks for pointing that out.

Was under the impression that there are various collaborations involved some with Uk and other with US over for various aspects of this new project.
The Americans would love to keep us and the Japanese apart, as it would give them a monopoly on the 6th Gen market.

The crossover/cooperation is creeping on bit by bit. There's merit in commonality. We have a lot of the same requirements as the Japanese, in terms of being an island with a large area of maritime airspace to watch over.

There's also the sticky issue of being allowed access to the Americans' 6th Gen technology. The F-22 was a restricted item; who's to say we'd be allowed access to NGAD? If we got it, would we get the full-fat version?

Then there's the political situation in the US: there's a lot of instability at the moment and politics are polarising. One administration might say 'yes', only to see that decision vetoed by the next.

There's a lot that's hostage to fortune, here. If we can achieve a Tempest force, that'd be great and not just for reasons of national pride - but because it'd be guaranteed. The Japanese bring a lot to the table, and not just in terms of economic might; they have some really useful technologies.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
You made the claim, why not supply the information? And no, I don’t know the number either.
Oh, so you're just choppsing off.

I've already qualified that that Raptor wins farther out. Its radar cross-section is tiny and its sensing capabilities outstanding - the lack of an IRST notwithstanding. There's no comparison.

But when Typhoons have been able to close the fight, and it has happened on occasion, the Raptor gets a mauling. The Typhoon is an outstanding dogfighter, both in kinetic terms and because of its missile-cueing.

You might look up what relatively austerely equipped Luftwaffe Typhoons managed to do a decade or so ago.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
I have read that the F-22 requires an excessive amount of maintenance and this was true from introduction. It was questionable as to whether a squadron could be kept operational at reasonable levels of capability under war time conditions as opposed to during an exercise.

The F-35 apparently corrected a lot of the problems of the F-22 with respect to maintainability. With dog fighting seen as being on its way out any supposedly better manoeuvrability of the F-22 was not seen as important. Any features of its electronics or software which were considered important could be added to the F-35 later if required.

I've also read that a big part of the decision to cancel the F-22 came down to people realizing that with no major immediate threat they would rather wait for the F35 which was then in the pipeline than continue to buy F-22s.
In many respects, the F-35 is the 'lessons learned' from the F-22. That includes all sorts, from the durability of coatings to MTBF figures for the avionics.

I don't have it to hand but I have a document somewhere that talks about the F-35's development. The MTBF of the radar, for instance, was intended to be longer than that of the aircraft. It included the memorable line, "Once the radome goes on, we need never take it off again."

That's a BIG claim to make but it demonstrates the design philosophy.

There are ca. 25 million lines of code in an F-35, versus ca. 1.7million in the F-22.

Although both are classed as 5th Gen, the F-35 is in many respects a generation on.
 
Oh, so you're just choppsing off.

I've already qualified that that Raptor wins farther out. Its radar cross-section is tiny and its sensing capabilities outstanding - the lack of an IRST notwithstanding. There's no comparison.

But when Typhoons have been able to close the fight, and it has happened on occasion, the Raptor gets a mauling. The Typhoon is an outstanding dogfighter, both in kinetic terms and because of its missile-cueing.

You might look up what relatively austerely equipped Luftwaffe Typhoons managed to do a decade or so ago.

Again you are making claims like “the raptor gets a mauling” WVR without providing evidence of the engagement.
Do you know how many engagements there were WVR at the specific exercise you are referring to and the kill count for both planes? Simple questions…
 
The fact remains that each aircraft was designed with differing roles.

The F-22 air superiority, the F-35 multi-role.

This may not have to be the case with the NGAD.

This is likely to be a machine that will be able to work with unmanned loyal wingmen who are capable of carrying out each role individually. In essence a command structure capable of fulfilling many roles through subordinate extensions.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
Again you are making claims like “the raptor gets a mauling” WVR without providing evidence of the engagement.
Do you know how many engagements there were WVR at the specific exercise you are referring to and the kill count for both planes? Simple questions…
Anything else?

Names, addresses and star signs of the pilots? Breakfast preferences of the ground crews? Names of their first pets and favourite teachers?

It’s documented. Go look yourself. I’ve given you pointers.

Actually, don’t bother. You’ve already won the internet.
 
Scoring a couple of kills WVR in Red Flag under controlled scenarios is very different to saying “Typhoon will kill F22 in a dogfight”. Especially when there’s zero context about how many kills the F22 scored in return.
True - however there was context given ie fair - unscripted wvr - but was scripted to get into WVR

Under the correct scenario a Spitfire will out-turn and kill an F22 in a dogfight. Doesn’t mean the comparison holds much value.

Its almost like you completely ignored my last sentence - you know the one that makes a similar point
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
The fact remains that each aircraft was designed with differing roles.

The F-22 air superiority, the F-35 multi-role.

This may not have to be the case with the NGAD.

This is likely to be a machine that will be able to work with unmanned loyal wingmen who are capable of carrying out each role individually. In essence a command structure capable of fulfilling many roles through subordinate extensions.
The NGAD ‘philosophy’ might see several very different versions in service concurrently, not incremental upgrades and set Blocks as we see now. The thinking is more of a kit of parts than a set aircraft. It’ll be the same airframe but different capabilities at different times - or at the same time(s), if that makes sense.

It takes configurability on a stage.

It means that any opposition can’t plan to fight ‘an‘ NGAD. It also means that some upgrades/changes/developments might only be in and out of service very quickly.

It’s a very interesting way of doing things.
 
Anything else?

Names, addresses and star signs of the pilots? Breakfast preferences of the ground crews? Names of their first pets and favourite teachers?

It’s documented. Go look yourself. I’ve given you pointers.

Actually, don’t bother. You’ve already won the internet.
So the answer is that you don’t know then? I have searched and can’t find anything about a “mauling” as you claimed.

True - however there was context given ie fair - unscripted wvr - but was scripted to get into WVR



Its almost like you completely ignored my last sentence - you know the one that makes a similar point
Fair enough. The post wasn’t really aimed at you, but at CC for making some extravagant claims without enough context.
 
The NGAD ‘philosophy’ might see several very different versions in service concurrently, not incremental upgrades and set Blocks as we see now. The thinking is more of a kit of parts than a set aircraft. It’ll be the same airframe but different capabilities at different times - or at the same time(s), if that makes sense.

I've said before it would have been great if the F35 was truly modular. Swap the wings and the fuel tank/lift engine etc and convert an A to a B to a C and back again in the field in a few hours depending on the needs of the next mission. It's impossible of course, the materials strong and light enough to enable it don't exist. There would need to be a massive leap forward and maybe the next big leap will be big enough that you don't need to bother, you could 3D print an new airframe every time you needed one with a design tweaked from the sensor logs of the past mission e.g. for a different radar cross section customised to defeat the radar the enemy were using on the day, or different aerodynamics to defeat whatever fighter or missiles they were using. We're talking 50 years out here of course but a lot of kit does outlive its original service life.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
I've said before it would have been great if the F35 was truly modular. Swap the wings and the fuel tank/lift engine etc and convert an A to a B to a C and back again in the field in a few hours depending on the needs of the next mission. It's impossible of course, the materials strong and light enough to enable it don't exist. There would need to be a massive leap forward and maybe the next big leap will be big enough that you don't need to bother, you could 3D print an new airframe every time you needed one with a design tweaked from the sensor logs of the past mission e.g. for a different radar cross section customised to defeat the radar the enemy were using on the day, or different aerodynamics to defeat whatever fighter or missiles they were using. We're talking 50 years out here of course but a lot of kit does outlive its original service life.
CALF, the Common Affordable Light Fighter which through several iterations became the F-35, was supposed to many things. V/STOL or STOVL capability with peer-level performance (so, M2.0 or thereabouts, 9g airframe, very high kinetic performance)... all in one airframe.

That physics didn't allow that was how we've ended with three versions.
 

rustypilgrim

Old-Salt
So the answer is that you don’t know then? I have searched and can’t find anything about a “mauling” as you claimed.


Fair enough. The post wasn’t really aimed at you, but at CC for making some extravagant claims without enough context.
I'd just like to refer you to the forum title - The Army Rumour Service, not the Army Bloody Forensic Detail Debating Society. That must be elsewhere.:)
 

Slime

LE
So the answer is that you don’t know then? I have searched and can’t find anything about a “mauling” as you claimed.


Fair enough. The post wasn’t really aimed at you, but at CC for making some extravagant claims without enough context.

As I’m curious, and as I have read, seen or heard quite a lot of detail on the various Typhoon v F22 encounters…………..


What exactly DID you find when you searched?
Surely you found at least something relating to multiple years worth of encounters. :)
 
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