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F35 - Money well spent.

Second time I've read "up to your ass in alligators" today - you don't want to reaching for touch screens at 9G I reckon

Totally agree. Selecting the wrong item because you slipped a finger is bad. Anyhows, I often have to thump touch screens several times before it "takes".
Imagine some poor chap screaming blue murder ( DASS now now now FFS !!! ) because his finger won't register - stuff that. Big red switches suitably spaced if possible please.
 
Totally agree. Selecting the wrong item because you slipped a finger is bad. Anyhows, I often have to thump touch screens several times before it "takes".
Imagine some poor chap screaming blue murder ( DASS now now now FFS !!! ) because his finger won't register - stuff that. Big red switches suitably spaced if possible please.
I hope the voice recognition is better than MS Cortana

"Sorry about that, I didn't hear anything"
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
I'd agree. However, imho we won't be allowed to get too competitive with the US.
I think tier2 got us conditional access to aspects of stealth tech and every move will be made to ensure we can't go one better - for commercial and military considerations.
The need for "interoperability" will mean US systems on board, and that can be used to stifle foreign sales.
Ultimately, we can get as competitive as we like - as long as we can find the money. Pulling us into the F-35 was a way of stifling competition. Yes, I'm sure that the US will pull all the angles. That's nothing new - at all - but, ultimately, it can't dictate to us as a sovereign nation what we can and can't do.

Besides, define 'too competitive'. There are numerous places we're already ahead of the US. Brimstone is an example and so is Meteor. The elements in the AESA radar being developed by Leonardo are by all accounts quite knicky bits of kit; the Americans can't say, 'You can't have those.'
 
I hope the voice recognition is better than MS Cortana

"Sorry about that, I didn't hear anything"

"Sorry I can't find ****ING **** "
Ultimately, we can get as competitive as we like - as long as we can find the money. Pulling us into the F-35 was a way of stifling competition. Yes, I'm sure that the US will pull all the angles. That's nothing new - at all - but, ultimately, it can't dictate to us as a sovereign nation what we can and can't do.

Besides, define 'too competitive'. There are numerous places we're already ahead of the US. Brimstone is an example and so is Meteor. The elements in the AESA radar being developed by Leonardo are by all accounts quite knicky bits of kit; the Americans can't say, 'You can't have those.'
The missiles are Excellent products that the US tried to woo us away from getting involved in, afaik. They also didn't sell to the US who tried to produce equivalents.
They can make it difficult if someone wants to integrate it on US origin kit and it might affect the sales of US equivalents.
Imaginary examples here - Integrate Meteor on F15/18 ? Ooh, dunno, it will cost you, but you can have the latest all American built AMRAAM for a lot less....Plus the stealth in flight data link is only available for US radars....
It's all that can hobble us. If we do go alone, their strategy will be to remove competition by persuading us that we're better off with them. If we persist, they try to ensure the US market is closed and the non US market is limited. And tbh, they are looking after themselves, so I don't blame them.
Are the AESA modules of US origin ? They were the waders in that tech, dunno if Europe has its own sources.
 

CamNostos

Old-Salt
Ultimately, we can get as competitive as we like - as long as we can find the money. Pulling us into the F-35 was a way of stifling competition. Yes, I'm sure that the US will pull all the angles. That's nothing new - at all - but, ultimately, it can't dictate to us as a sovereign nation what we can and can't do.

Besides, define 'too competitive'. There are numerous places we're already ahead of the US. Brimstone is an example and so is Meteor. The elements in the AESA radar being developed by Leonardo are by all accounts quite knicky bits of kit; the Americans can't say, 'You can't have those.'

Is Brimstone better than Hellfire? AGM114 L has Mmw radar like Brimstone, and R2 has fuzing/trajectory shaping options that make it much more attractive to AH. More lethality options for a variety of target sets as well.

Not disputing your point in general though, just stating that from a CAS perspective we need/want both.
 
I think that @History_Man meant that with 12 SHARs on board there wasn't a lot of room for any other aircraft or helicopters, not the ordnance load.

The Queen Elizabeth can carry the F-35s it has on board and a lot more besides at the same time.


That too… its all down to deck moves
24 - no deck moves - highest operational tempo
If you allow 3 deck moves per launch like the 'Muricans, you could get 70 on.
Deck area is only a tad smaller than a Nimitz Class 4 vs 4.5 acres
24 x F-35B, 14 x Merlin is the nominal air group
 
How real are these rumours of cutting the buy of 140 Aircraft? I know we havnt signed up for them yet, but surely the only thing that has changed since we discussed 140 Aircraft is that China, Iran and Russia have become more assertive?

I think we could replace some of the F-35B with the F-35A to balance the fleet (i.e. force multipliers for the Tiffy) but I dont see 140 being a maximum buy, the next Aircraft might be a Tempest in 20+ years from now, there cant be many Typhoons left to build, fcuk knows what happened to NEURON and TARANIS and if they will emerge as a Loyal Wingman type and surely a Wingman would be better suited to a Stealth F-35 than a Typhoon due to the Lightenings sensors and stealth?
Only confirmed orders are for 48
 
Ultimately, we can get as competitive as we like - as long as we can find the money. Pulling us into the F-35 was a way of stifling competition. Yes, I'm sure that the US will pull all the angles. That's nothing new - at all - but, ultimately, it can't dictate to us as a sovereign nation what we can and can't do.

Besides, define 'too competitive'. There are numerous places we're already ahead of the US. Brimstone is an example and so is Meteor. The elements in the AESA radar being developed by Leonardo are by all accounts quite knicky bits of kit; the Americans can't say, 'You can't have those.'
Don't underestimate US abilities when it comes to killing competition. It bullies from the start, using its economic might to its advantage.

How many Brimstone sales do we have outside of the UK? Meteor has advantage of being a joint enterprise so we may even be able to up its sales a bit more.
 
How real are these rumours of cutting the buy of 140 Aircraft? I know we havnt signed up for them yet, but surely the only thing that has changed since we discussed 140 Aircraft is that China, Iran and Russia have become more assertive?

I think we could replace some of the F-35B with the F-35A to balance the fleet (i.e. force multipliers for the Tiffy) but I dont see 140 being a maximum buy, the next Aircraft might be a Tempest in 20+ years from now, there cant be many Typhoons left to build, fcuk knows what happened to NEURON and TARANIS and if they will emerge as a Loyal Wingman type and surely a Wingman would be better suited to a Stealth F-35 than a Typhoon due to the Lightenings sensors and stealth?
Current rumours are a buy limit of 60/70 which we could possibly live with (as long as it’s not a long purchase period) but all B models. There is a belief that having an A/B split with those numbers could result in a 2 small operationally ineffective fleets with near empty carrier flight decks.
Not an expert and nothing but stuff from the rumour mill but in my opinion (for what it’s worth) that is the way it will probably go, no 138 buy and maximum of 4 operational Squadrons of the B model only. Don’t think the Yanks will be pleased.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
Don't underestimate US abilities when it comes to killing competition. It bullies from the start, using its economic might to its advantage.

How many Brimstone sales do we have outside of the UK? Meteor has advantage of being a joint enterprise so we may even be able to up its sales a bit more.
Oh, I'm not for a moment underestimating the shenanigans of our closest ally.

I suppose that my response to @CamNostos regarding Brimstone/Hellfire should have been that the two are different enough for the Americans to be developing their own equivalent to Brimstone instead of making a MOTS buy. Why? NIH.
 

CamNostos

Old-Salt
I suppose that my response to @CamNostos regarding Brimstone/Hellfire should have been that the two are different enough for the Americans to be developing their own equivalent to Brimstone instead of making a MOTS buy. Why? NIH.

Not sure I understand the question mate. They already have the Lima variant that aim point optimises/terminally guides with Mmw radar. And a load of other options in the 114 family like the November and 'ninja bomb' variants. It's an AGM 'for every occasion' family to a one use missile comparison.

Again, not an expert but SPEAR2 improvements won't address this, this may upset AH/Reaper types when/if it's cross-decked.

Not certain on this but think the AGM 114L may have been in service before Brimstone so they may have had that capability before we did.
 
Current rumours are a buy limit of 60/70 which we could possibly live with (as long as it’s not a long purchase period) but all B models. There is a belief that having an A/B split with those numbers could result in a 2 small operationally ineffective fleets with near empty carrier flight decks.
Not an expert and nothing but stuff from the rumour mill but in my opinion (for what it’s worth) that is the way it will probably go, no 138 buy and maximum of 4 operational Squadrons of the B model only. Don’t think the Yanks will be pleased.

concurr, and all F-35 interest primarily to carrier ops now the RAF has its eye on a very shiny new toy.
 
Current rumours are a buy limit of 60/70 which we could possibly live with (as long as it’s not a long purchase period) but all B models. There is a belief that having an A/B split with those numbers could result in a 2 small operationally ineffective fleets with near empty carrier flight decks.
Not an expert and nothing but stuff from the rumour mill but in my opinion (for what it’s worth) that is the way it will probably go, no 138 buy and maximum of 4 operational Squadrons of the B model only. Don’t think the Yanks will be pleased.

Generally the UK orders about an additional 30% allowing for attrition - then rotates the airframes.
There is the potential if its confirmed the F35 Lines open for a long while - to just order what it needs and then replace with new builds as airframes expire - that would require some level of forsight and prebooking (but not insurmountable based on expected usage) in order to have a few option slots pre booked and open on the line.
 
That’s all well and good but when you’re up to your arrse in alligators you’re going to want to keep your controls to hand.


Just found the throttle on line:

View attachment 507177View attachment 507178View attachment 507178View attachment 507179

I think at least 50% of those are back ups if your touch screen fails, there is absolutely no need for so many buttons on a Hotas.

Hotas is for combat, if the F-35 is so clever, why do you need more Hotas selections than any aircraft ever!!

If the F-35 is as good as it says on the tin, you probably dont even need a Hotas system!
 
I think we could have had a larger A and B model split buy if we didn’t have Tempest in the mix.
 
Yes, but realistically you have to spend your way out of this, if the government pause or slow down, we are even more fcked.

You can't spend your way out of it. To do so without hugely raising taxes, which reduces money in circulation and hurts the economy, means borrowing. Which means the bond market.

At some point, bond buyers will figure out that you have no possible way of paying back money and will either stop buying government bonds or demanding higher interest rates on them, compounding your problem. Sterling will also slide relative to other currencies which will not help something bought in $, even if 15% of it is spent in UK.

That's when HMG starts to run out of accessible money - at which point inflation goes through the roof and you're buying your bog roll with £50 notes (which you may as well use for that anyway by that point).
 
I think we could have had a larger A and B model split buy if we didn’t have Tempest in the mix.

But Tempest is actually the jewel in the crown (if done properly). The A does not have a sufficient performance or price differential to justify the emb8ggerance of split fleets.
 
But Tempest is actually the jewel in the crown (if done properly). The A does not have a sufficient performance or price differential to justify the emb8ggerance of split fleets.
Totally agree.
 
But Tempest is actually the jewel in the crown (if done properly). The A does not have a sufficient performance or price differential to justify the emb8ggerance of split fleets.

A or B is now a moot argument as the fast track prize is indeed Tempest - Mach Lots, very long range, lots of teeth, air dominance.
 

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