F35 - Money well spent.

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
I never questioned whether not it could, but whether or not it did - given the CAS focus of the USMC and the protective cover from USN warships and carrier aircraft.

It was @Magic_Mushroom who said it did not do air defence on recent operations. I always assumed it did the full range of possible roles.
Fair. I wasn’t setting out to shoot you down.





















Sorry.
 
It was @Magic_Mushroom who said it did not do air defence on recent operations. I always assumed it did the full range of possible roles.
I stand by that comment.

I’ve never once seen a USMC AV-8B carry AMRAAM on ops or even exercise, or be fragged on the ATO for DCA.

Spanish and Italian jets occasionally did in the Balkans however.

Regards,
MM
 

Yokel

LE
I stand by that comment.

I’ve never once seen a USMC AV-8B carry AMRAAM on ops or even exercise, or be fragged on the ATO for DCA.

Spanish and Italian jets occasionally did in the Balkans however.

Regards,
MM
I never disputed it!

You have first hand experience - I do not so made assumptions. @ECMO1's explanation puts it into context. Focussing on CAS was their day to day job, and they only did air defence in extremitis.

By contrast the Italian and Spanish Navy jets probably did train for air defence in an integrated environment - with friendly warships and aircraft

As I like to say, all the value comes from integration.
 

Yokel

LE
Question for those with a disposition for aeronautical engineering - if the choice for JSF had been the X-32 and not the X-35 (later F-35) what difference would it have made to STOVL capability? As I understand it the X-32 would have used two nozzles (as opposed to the four on the Harrier) with computer control, but would this have enabled the precise landings the F-35B does?

Watching the F-35B land on deck is so smooth compared to watching a Sea Harrier/Harrier land and the pilot trying to keep four nozzles in balance and the throttle, and keep and eye on the HIHAT display. Is that down to computer control of does having the Lift Fan and the main engine output (not sure what term I am looking for) in line contribute to it?

Would the SRVL techniques still be feasible?
 
Another way to ask would be could you land the F-35 with a Harrier type control without the computers?

I would imagine that a Harrier with a computer in place of the pilot it would land just fine.

Sorry but I am not in any way an expert so unqualified to answer but hey ho!
 
if the choice for JSF had been the X-32 and not the X-35 (later F-35) what difference would it have made to STOVL capability
The ship would have rejected / repelled the bird as having been beaten heavily with the ugly stick and unfit to be seen on the deck.
 

Yokel

LE
The ship would have rejected / repelled the bird as having been beaten heavily with the ugly stick and unfit to be seen on the deck.
I did wonder about that. The large intake up front would have been a danger to deck personnel in the same way certain USN jets like the A-7 Corsair II could eat deck crew. Also surely it increases FOD vulnerability?

Also, in some films the deck crew slap each other on the back, with an X/F-32 they might slap each other instead.
 
The ship would have rejected / repelled the bird as having been beaten heavily with the ugly stick and unfit to be seen on the deck.
The production variant would've looked a little better than the X-32 allegedly and reminds me a little of the A-7E (noting that type was known as the 'SLUF'!) in some regards......






Regards,
MM
 
It would have struggled to look worse. The SLUF was a real looker in comparison.
I can't imagine what you mean...

...and I too have always admired the A-7's 'pugnacious' looks!

Regards,
MM
 

Yokel

LE
I did try to ask a sensible question about the different approaches to the STOVL capability taken by the two designs. Does the Rolls Royce LiftSystem, fitted to the F-35B, offer a better solution in terms of stability and control, than the X-32's two nozzle solution?
 
Saw a docco on the competition and for the X32 to hover they had to take some of the air intake off but still suffered from IIRC compressor stalls as the hot exhaust gas was ingested by the engine. Harrier has the same problem at one point I think.
The X35 had the RR lift system which cooled the hot exhaust gasses and prevented this. The X32 problem could have been corrected but would require a lot of modifications. Someone more knowledgable may know different.
 

Unknown_Quantity

War Hero
Moderator
I did try to ask a sensible question about the different approaches to the STOVL capability taken by the two designs. Does the Rolls Royce LiftSystem, fitted to the F-35B, offer a better solution in terms of stability and control, than the X-32's two nozzle solution?

This doesn't directly answer your question but the video here: Real Engineering - F35 covers some of how the STOVL systems worked (starting about 3 mins in)
 

ECMO1

Old-Salt
I stand by that comment.

I’ve never once seen a USMC AV-8B carry AMRAAM on ops or even exercise, or be fragged on the ATO for DCA.

Spanish and Italian jets occasionally did in the Balkans however.

Regards,
MM
AV-8B AMRAAM.png

To be honest by the time an ESG is under the umbrella of AWACS and/or they are working with an ATO, they probably assume that AD is available from other sources. Would happen more often during independent steaming.
 

tiv

War Hero
I did try to ask a sensible question about the different approaches to the STOVL capability taken by the two designs. Does the Rolls Royce LiftSystem, fitted to the F-35B, offer a better solution in terms of stability and control, than the X-32's two nozzle solution?
There is a diagram here https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/jsf.htm that shows the differences in the two systems. Note that the X-32 had a Jet Screen that appears to be to stop hot gas from the lift nozzles reaching the intake.
 
View attachment 436917
To be honest by the time an ESG is under the umbrella of AWACS and/or they are working with an ATO, they probably assume that AD is available from other sources. Would happen more often during independent steaming.
True but equally, when there’s any sort of threat to a large capital ship such as an LHD, I’d wager that overwatch from a DDG, CVN or land-based assets is the norm.

Where was the phot of the USMC AMRAAM toting jet taken? On exercise or in the US?

Regards,
MM
 

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