F35 - Money well spent.

Yokel

LE
Good to see when ‘Old School’ works it is still utilised.
This Air Force Base is Using 1950s Tech to Give F-35 Pilots More Flight Time

Even if ‘Old’ is pretty new with the 65th Red Air Aggressor Squadron getting 11 Early model F-35A’s.
Air Force Will Use Older F-35s to Simulate Enemy Fighters
Well if they need to train F-35 and F-22 pilots to go up against Russian and Chinese made jets with LO, that is what they need to do. As for 'old school' I thought you were talking about the ages of some of the personnel involved!

The story about the refuelling rig is a bit silly if you ask me.
 
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So they are using a hydrant system and dispenser......what nearly every civilian major airport uses and Brize for that matter.
 
Great, If it works use it.

As for 'old school' I though you were talking about the ages of some of the personnel involved!
As for the age of personnel involved it seems that the new computer game generation young pilots who go straight to the F-35 do very well indeed. No unlearning of 4th Gen tactics/procedures/techniques needed.

Interesting to see personally that in switching from fixed wing flying to gyros. Instinctive reaction to inadvertent slow flight in fixed wing is stick forward, fairly rapidly to decrease angle of attack to prevent stall. In a gyro rapid stick forward is a killer, unloads the rotor disc, airflow through top of disc, rapid deceleration of rotor RPM, blade flex/flap, and your dead.

With thousands of hours fixed versus few hundred rotary, nearly caught a couple of times. Muscle memory can sometimes not be so good.
 
...As for the age of personnel involved it seems that the new computer game generation young pilots who go straight to the F-35 do very well indeed. No unlearning of 4th Gen tactics/procedures/techniques needed...
There’s been no appreciable difference between how an ab initio ‘computer game generation’ pilot adapts to F-22, F-35 or any other 5th Gen type compared to a more experienced pilot who’s come from another type that I’ve heard of; and why on earth would they need to ‘unlearn’ 4th gen TTPs?

Regards,
MM
 
why on earth would they need to ‘unlearn’ 4th gen TTPs?
You are quite correct, that post was very clumsily put. The point perhaps I was trying to make was based on comments made by ‘Chip’ Berke on the young Raptor pilots that he had been working with who had little or no previous 4th Gen experience and who he felt were possibly quicker at getting the hang of of the F-22. Also that the F-35 and 5th Gen do pose very different problems and require completely new approaches to dealing and integration with, the present systems we have. This article perhaps puts it better.

The military aircraft cockpit is becoming a fully simulated view of the operating environment as weapons take advantage of evolving non-kinetic technologies. The value of effective in-flight simulation then will depend less on recreating mechanical and physical movement and more on digital rendition. During such training, fifth-generation pilots will need to learn to listen to the aircraft with greater faith than any prior generation of aviator. Learning to trust what the airplane “sees and says” will be a big hurdle at first, but one that must be quickly overcome with specific training and experience. Pilots flying legacy aircraft will also have to trust what a fifth-generation pilot is seeing is in fact real even if they are not sharing the same view of the operating environment. It is entirely possible that in, for example, urban operations that the critical close-air support role played by the A-10 is supplanted by close-in “cyber strafing” runs by an F-35. Familiarity and experience is crucial to developing trust in the air, which will have to be built in new ways for the fifth-generation era.

Getting Ahead of the Curve: Operational Insights at the Dawn of the Fifth-Gen Fighter Era | Avascent

Each F-35 pilot combined with human sensing (seeing visual cues outside the cockpit) will be now be enabled by machine driven sensor fusion to allow combat “situational awareness” (SA) better than any other opponent.

Concurrent with their ability to look-see, which is limited by physical realities, the F-35 pilot will be able to “see” using cockpit electronic displays and signals to their helmet allowing them not to just fight with their individual aircraft but be able to network and direct engagements at significant range in 360 Degrees of 3 dimensional space out to all connected platforms.

They are now not just individuals in a group effort fight with their own machine but having the ability to make kill webs involving multiple other assets, or another level up from previous 4th gen tactics

A fleet of F-35s will be able to share their fused information display at the speed of light to other aircraft and other platforms, such as ships, subs, satellites, and land based forces, including UAVs and eventually robots.
Shaping a Way Ahead to Prepare for 21st Century Conflicts: Payload-Utility Capabilities and the Kill Web - Second Line of Defense
 
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Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
You are quite correct, that post was very clumsily put. The point I was trying to make was that the F-35 and 5th Gen do pose very different problems and require completely new approaches to dealing and integration with, the present systems we have. This article puts is much better.

The military aircraft cockpit is becoming a fully simulated view of the operating environment as weapons take advantage of evolving non-kinetic technologies. The value of effective in-flight simulation then will depend less on recreating mechanical and physical movement and more on digital rendition. During such training, fifth-generation pilots will need to learn to listen to the aircraft with greater faith than any prior generation of aviator. Learning to trust what the airplane “sees and says” will be a big hurdle at first, but one that must be quickly overcome with specific training and experience. Pilots flying legacy aircraft will also have to trust what a fifth-generation pilot is seeing is in fact real even if they are not sharing the same view of the operating environment. It is entirely possible that in, for example, urban operations that the critical close-air support role played by the A-10 is supplanted by close-in “cyber strafing” runs by an F-35. Familiarity and experience is crucial to developing trust in the air, which will have to be built in new ways for the fifth-generation era.

Getting Ahead of the Curve: Operational Insights at the Dawn of the Fifth-Gen Fighter Era | Avascent
Straight from the random word generator.

I’d suggest that pilots of previous-generation aircraft had to listen rather more to what the airframe was telling them. Modern aircraft are significantly easier to fly.

As to what’s seen, the situational awareness of fourth-generation aircraft would truly astound the layperson. Being used to accepting that something unseen is in fact there is far from a new phenomenon.
 
...As to what’s seen, the situational awareness of fourth-generation aircraft would truly astound the layperson. Being used to accepting that something unseen is in fact there is far from a new phenomenon.
Unfortunately, lack of awareness or a mistaken visual perception of something as simple as the sky/sea interface has claimed the life of many a pilot, including a dear friend.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
Unfortunately, lack of awareness or a mistaken visual perception of something as simple as the sky/sea interface has claimed the life of many a pilot, including a dear friend.
I've quoted over on the Me-262 thread a dear, departed friend's presentation about the Meteor. He talks about the need to sweep the skies, stare at the instruments, sweep the skies... staring out of the cockpit without a break would cause the eyes to, effectively, un-focus, with potentially disastrous results.

By 'that seen', I was referring to targets, other aircraft, etc.. If we consider datalinks and so on it's already perfectly normal for aircraft and other assets spread over a wide geographical area to be aware of what's where, and to even hand control of onboard systems and weapons over to the control of other aircraft.
 
Straight from the random word generator.

I’d suggest that pilots of previous-generation aircraft had to listen rather more to what the airframe was telling them. Modern aircraft are significantly easier to fly.

As to what’s seen, the situational awareness of fourth-generation aircraft would truly astound the layperson. Being used to accepting that something unseen is in fact there is far from a new phenomenon.
Terms like "4th generation" and "5th generation" aren't that useful outside of the context in which they were originally intended, which is describing the US purchasing program. Within that context you can say that the collection of planes that the US is replacing with the F35 have certain limitations due to not being up to date, which in turn is related to the fact that they were scheduled to go out of service a number of years ago (when the F35 was originally scheduled to be in full service) so there was no point in spending more money on them.

So when the Americans say that "our old and knackered planes were out of date and our new ones are much better" you have to keep in mind that they are comparing their old planes to their new planes, not new ones belonging to someone else.

Other planes from other countries which are still in production and are being upgraded have up to date sensors, software, and other kit, in some cases more advanced than what the F35 has (according to press reports).

This is like selling your 15 year old car and buying a new one and then going around saying that there are 2 types of cars - 15 year old ones like you just got rid of and brand new ones like the one you just bought and that anyone who didn't just buy the same car you did has a 15 year old car like your old one. Meanwhile your neighbour bought a new car last year which might be better in some ways than what you have and doesn't feel all that compelled to replace it just because yours is newer.

LM by the way were trying to trademark the term "5th generation fighter" so that it would be a registered trademark for their F35 product.
 
You gotta be kidding me - that's like trying to patent and register water...
You obviously haven't spotted Glaceau (CocaCola) smartwater ™. It's tap water, distilled to remove mineral salts, then has electrolytes (mineral salts) added. Costs about £1 per litre.
 
You obviously haven't spotted Glaceau (CocaCola) smartwater ™. It's tap water, distilled to remove mineral salts, then has electrolytes (mineral salts) added. Costs about £1 per litre.
Bottled water these days has become most profitable commodity to the companies.

Fun fact: I couldn't charge for any bottled water in the UK on expenses at my last work place as tap water was considered fine, even if some of it tasted like crap and I bought stuff out of my own pocket. But I could charge beer or wine for expenses while on trips. Go figure.
 
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...The point perhaps I was trying to make was based on comments made by ‘Chip’ Berke on the young Raptor pilots that he had been working with who had little or no previous 4th Gen experience and who he felt were possibly quicker at getting the hang of of the F-22...
Firstly, don’t get seduced by the phrase ‘5th Gen.’. As @terminal says, ‘4th, 5th and 6th Gen’ are undefined terms which mean little.

Meanwhile, ‘Getting the hang’ on an aeroplane is just one factor of combat effectiveness; otherwise we’d be filling our cockpits with young first tourists. However, you can’t teach experience and 4th Gen guys are central to developing the platform, particularly as most F-35 operators will continue to operate 4th Gen types alongside it.

...During such training, fifth-generation pilots will need to learn to listen to the aircraft with greater faith than any prior generation of aviator. Learning to trust what the airplane “sees and says” will be a big hurdle at first, but one that must be quickly overcome with specific training and experience...
Absolutely no different to when F3s started flying completely EMCON silent and relying on AWACS JTIDS track data for SA over 25 years ago.

That took a LOT of practice to develop the trust of the fighter guys and appropriate tactics (the F3 had a very limited track capacity at the time and releasing the entire E-3 picture meant that only the 15 (iirc) closest appeared in the backseater’s display). However, it made an enormous difference and proved a MASSIVE shock to F-15C pilots the first time they encountered the tactic on exercise!

Similar evolutions of trust as other fighter communities joined the JTIDS and MIDS club.

...They are now not just individuals in a group effort fight with their own machine but having the ability to make kill webs involving multiple other assets, or another level up from previous 4th gen tactics...

...A fleet of F-35s will be able to share their fused information display at the speed of light to other aircraft and other platforms, such as ships, subs, satellites, and land based forces, including UAVs and eventually robots.
Shaping a Way Ahead to Prepare for 21st Century Conflicts: Payload-Utility Capabilities and the Kill Web - Second Line of Defense
Stop believing the hype!

We’ve been doing this ‘at the speed of light’ for decades, starting with things like Link 11 and SAGE back in the 60s; 5th Gen just takes it to the next stage.

5th Gen are a significant step-change for customers but the need for evangelism should be avoided; remember also that not all F-35s are the same!

Regards,
MM
 
That took a LOT of practice to develop the trust of the fighter guys and appropriate tactics (the F3 had a very limited track capacity at the time and releasing the entire E-3 picture meant that only the 15 (iirc) closest appeared in the backseater’s display). However, it made an enormous difference and proved a MASSIVE shock to F-15C pilots the first time they encountered the tactic on exercise!

Similar evolutions of trust as other fighter communities joined the JTIDS and MIDS club.
Regards,
MM
I cannot agree or emphasise this point from MM enough. I was part of this (at the F3 end mainly) and the impact of near real time datalinking was astounding. We went from constantly being on the back foot against highest tier threats to kicking their arses all over the place.

It was awesome!
 

endure

GCM
Well if they need to train F-35 and F-22 pilots to go up against Russian and Chinese made jets with LO, that is what they need to do. As for 'old school' I thought you were talking about the ages of some of the personnel involved!

The story about the refuelling rig is a bit silly if you ask me.

If an F35 isn't hot refueling but stopping its engine before refuelling takes place how long does it take to start the engine again? I assume it's a bit more complicated than just turning the key in the ignition? How is the engine started?
 
I cannot agree or emphasise this point from MM enough. I was part of this (at the F3 end mainly) and the impact of near real time datalinking was astounding. We went from constantly being on the back foot against highest tier threats to kicking their arses all over the place.

It was awesome!
COPE THUNDER 98...or was it 95?

Regards,
MM
 
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How is the engine started?
FUEL ON! BRAKES ON! THROTTLE CLOSED! SWITCHES OFF!

Then a wee man comes out and spins the propeller a few times to prime the engine before you pull the knob to fire the shotgun cartridge.

(On second thoughts that might not be the F35, could be the Chipmunk though)
 
One of the big game changers for the future will be increased situational awareness.

Pre-AWACS / JSTARS etc a pilot had the Mk.1 Mod.0 eyeball with radar limited to a few miles around the aircraft, possibly with radio updates from other aircraft.

In the modern age fast data links and computers have the ability to integrate information from all friendly aircraft radars plus AWACS etc and provide a larger tactical picture covering hundreds of miles of sky to the individual pilot. This is taking a step change with "5th gen" aircraft in terms of integrating each plane into a tactical weapon.

The limitation will, to some extent, be the ability of the pilot to understand the massive flow of data. The risk of getting into a furball with EA and a traditional dogfight will become negligible and BVR capability will become more important.

Unless, of course, politicians put their oars in for ROE.
 

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