F35 - Money well spent.

How many a/c do you need to generate that one CAP 24/7 ? I’d imagine as an absolute min it’s in the region of 3

Do you need a 2nd CAP?

This obviously eats into the other non-CAP tasks that can be conducted
As @Not a Boffin suggests, while your ratio is correct, CAPs will nearly always be a 2 ship. So for a decent range from the ship, you're probably looking at around 6 for each 24/7 CAP with maybe a couple of others on deck alert.

However, the scenarios and permutations are endless.

Regards,
MM
 
As @Not a Boffin suggests, while your ratio is correct, CAPs will nearly always be a 2 ship. So for a decent range from the ship, you're probably looking at around 6 for each 24/7 CAP with maybe a couple of others on deck alert.

However, the scenarios and permutations are endless.

Regards,
MM
One of the characteristics that makes an aircraft carrier rather more than a 'floating airfield' whose air operations are totally controlled by some remote HQ.
 
One of the characteristics that makes an aircraft carrier rather more than a 'floating airfield' whose air operations are totally controlled by some remote HQ.
What is?

Remember that on most ops the carrier assets are normally tasked and allocated buy the CAOC.

Regards,
MM
 
What is?

Remember that on most ops the carrier assets are normally tasked and allocated buy the CAOC.

Regards,
MM
In theory and probably benign threat level practice, yes. Whether CAOC/ATO management will compel a maritime commander to release all his air assets to CAOC tasking - as opposed to retaining OPCOM of some for DCA remains to be seen.
 
What is?

Remember that on most ops the carrier assets are normally tasked and allocated buy the CAOC.

Regards,
MM
Including mid-ocean CAP, Surface Surveillance, ASW, ASu and SAR sorties? Won't the TG Commander and AAW Commander have any say in it?

Only speaking from my experience but must confess I am way out of date.
 
What is?

Remember that on most ops the carrier assets are normally tasked and allocated buy the CAOC.

Regards,
MM
Including mid-ocean CAP, Surface Surveillance, ASW, ASu and SAR sorties? Won't the TG Commander and AAW Commander have any say in it?

Only speaking from my experience but must confess I am way out of date.
Perhaps but, as always, it depends: threat; campaign main effort; who the supported commander is; where the carrier is; what else is going on in the area; etc. Also, you have to ask if using 5Gen jets to fly CAP is the best use of their characteristics if you can cover the carrier with 4Gen fighters from somewhere else and use the shiny new toys against the A2AD threat that is holding up the main force.


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In theory and probably benign threat level practice, yes. Whether CAOC/ATO management will compel a maritime commander to release all his air assets to CAOC tasking - as opposed to retaining OPCOM of some for DCA remains to be seen.
Including mid-ocean CAP, Surface Surveillance, ASW, ASu and SAR sorties? Won't the TG Commander and AAW Commander have any say in it?

Only speaking from my experience but must confess I am way out of date.
In a purely blue water operation of TG v TG, the TG Commander would have primacy although I can't envisage many such scenarios for the foreseeable future.

The trouble with the TG retaining OPCOM of some assets is that they would still need to be incorporated into the Air Tasking Order and Airspace Control Measures (which are produced by the CAOC) and may complicate C2.

In my experience on ops, I've very rarely seen a carrier retain organic C2 of DCA unless they're well out of the way. More normally, standard CAP coverage provided by land and ship based assets will be combined with land and maritime SAMs to provide area coverage. However, maritime units can still control those assets (which may be from an airfield or carrier). Likewise, my AWACS has regularly tasked as Direct Support to a TG by the CAOC.

Remember that CAOC stands for Combined Air Ops Centre, Nor Combined Air Force Ops Centre and will incorporate Maritime liaison staff.

Regards,
MM
 
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Remember that CAOC stands for Combined Air Ops Centre, Nor Combined Air Force Ops Centre and will incorporate Maritime liaison staff.
Absolutely - and point on C2 understood. Just a little surprised that your average USN 2* CVBG Flag would necessarily delegate all his assets to a theatre command which may not be as proximate to a threat.
 
Remember that CAOC stands for Combined Air Ops Centre, Nor Combined Air Force Ops Centre and will incorporate Maritime liaison staff.
Absolutely - and point on C2 understood. Just a little surprised that your average USN 2* CVBG Flag would necessarily delegate all his assets to a theatre command which may not be as proximate to a threat.
And that's where the planners earn their money: apportionment of all available resources to counter threats and attack targets across the theatre. Each Component Commander then gets allocated resources to achieve the desired effects against his prioritised tasks according to what he requested from the whole. (A long-winded way of saying there's not enough to go around so agree what is important and deal with it with your slice of the pie).


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Perhaps but, as always, it depends: threat; campaign main effort; who the supported commander is; where the carrier is; what else is going on in the area; etc. Also, you have to ask if using 5Gen jets to fly CAP is the best use of their characteristics if you can cover the carrier with 4Gen fighters from somewhere else and use the shiny new toys against the A2AD threat that is holding up the main force.


Posted from the ARRSE Mobile app (iOS or Android)
But when all you have is F35s on the carrier.....
 
But when all you have is F35s on the carrier.....
A carrier the republic of south Ireland, doesn’t have, airframes they don’t have, dear me you expect people to discuss at best sensitive information and at worst restricted and everything that comes after that?

Do you have your own Air Defence network? Air Superiority Fighters? 4.5 gen? Or do you rely on a country who routinely stops, intercepts those?

On a side note who do you call if you have a air lingus 747 heading unresponsive towards Dublin?

Is it the RAF?
 
Carrier borne fighters, on CAP or not, are not there to defend just the carrier but to provide defence against air threats far beyond the range of ship based defences. They are a Task Group weapon, not unlike other ships providing specific capabilities to a Task group.
 
Carrier borne fighters, on CAP or not, are not there to defend just the carrier but to provide defence against air threats far beyond the range of ship based defences. They are a Task Group weapon, not unlike other ships providing specific capabilities to a Task group.
As part of a layered defence.

CAP - ASTER 30 and/or ASTER 15 - Sea Wolf/Sea Ceptor - CIWS - 30mm’s/Mini-guns/MGs etc
 

seaweed

LE
Book Reviewer
The carrier's job as I see it is to deliver offensive effect using its main armament, its F35-Bs (otherwise she and her supports are just steaming around the oggin to no purpose). The more have to be committed to the defensive task of CAP, the less offensive output can be delivered.

The whole point of the RN is to cause the Queen's enemies to quake and reconsider any adventure they might have in mind, and if they do not do this, to beat the sh!t out of them. WAR is our business, everything else is gravy.

Lemon? yes please, not too much ice, thank you..
 
Sounds like more woes for the F35 programme - specifically the B-model the UK is buying, but probably some fleet-wide issues which will affect all variants.

F-35 troubles: Pentagon refuses to accept new aircraft as its makes problem report ‘Top Secret’

F-35 deliveries suspented, problem report made ‘Top Secret’
We should note though that the reason deliveries have been halted is a contract dispute over who pays for assembly line errors.

As a minor point I will add that the information in the article with respect to Canada is years out of date. Given that obvious error I wouldn't take their laundry list of problems as definitive either.
 
An Italian view of the F35 (& Typhoon):

Ultimately, the F-35 and F-2000 [Eurofighter] assets will cover the wide spectrum of our operational roles, from information superiority to kinetic capability.


Will the Typhoon receive an air-to-ground role? The Italian Air Force will soon achieve an operational capability in the air-to-ground role. This step forward will enable us to better manage the transition between third-generation assets [the Tornado and AMX] and fifth-generation [fighters]. When this transition process is completed, we will have two completely interoperable assets—the F-35 and F-2000—allowing us to cover and manage the full spectrum of challenging combat scenarios by choosing the best combination for any given operation.
 
The carrier's job as I see it is to deliver offensive effect using its main armament, its F35-Bs (otherwise she and her supports are just steaming around the oggin to no purpose). The more have to be committed to the defensive task of CAP, the less offensive output can be delivered.

The whole point of the RN is to cause the Queen's enemies to quake and reconsider any adventure they might have in mind, and if they do not do this, to beat the sh!t out of them. WAR is our business, everything else is gravy.

Lemon? yes please, not too much ice, thank you..
The carrier carries fighters to provide long range air defence for a Task Group, which may well include ships doing offensive things such as amphibious operations or naval gunfire support. Carrier = task group capability.

In any case fighters can escort attack aircraft, and modern types such as F-35B are fully swing role.
 
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The carrier's job as I see it is to deliver offensive effect using its main armament, its F35-Bs (otherwise she and her supports are just steaming around the oggin to no purpose). The more have to be committed to the defensive task of CAP, the less offensive output can be delivered.

The whole point of the RN is to cause the Queen's enemies to quake and reconsider any adventure they might have in mind, and if they do not do this, to beat the sh!t out of them. WAR is our business, everything else is gravy.

Lemon? yes please, not too much ice, thank you..
I would, with respect, suggest that that’s a very simplistic view of what the QEs (and F-35s) can offer which ignores a number of influence, ISR and maritime activity. The F-35B will be just one element of a QE jigsaw which itself fits into a larger Joint and coalition environment.

Regards,
MM
 
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