F35 - Money well spent.

As a matter of interest, can the F-35B be catapulted?

If not, will our aircraft be able to cross deck with US carriers which (obviously) lack the ski ramp that our ships have?
No and depends on what the “coating” of the deck is.
 
I would have thought that a "fail safe" system that was usually RETAINING the undercarriage, air brakes, drogue (para)chutes, would sense the loss of power, and (automatically), deploy all the above under the stored kinetic power in springs or whatever (compressed air), that would/could normally be used deploy them.

I refer honourable readers to the spring/air brakes principle used by commercial vehicles, in which the vehicles/aircraft's power systems retain such systems, until the "driver" instructs otherwise - OR - there is s a (complete) power failure, in which such systems would deploy automatically, using whatever kinetic "power" was stored in air tanks/springs/batteries.

;) .
 
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As a matter of interest, can the F-35B be catapulted?

If not, will our aircraft be able to cross deck with US carriers which (obviously) lack the ski ramp that our ships have?

No cat spools, but they can do a standard STVOL ltake off as per USN LHAs, LPHs.

Not really an issue as other than emergencies, F-35Bs won’t cross deck to CVNs.
No thermal deck coatings, lack of model support.
It’s a major reason why the QE’s are so important to the USMC, they are the only big decks in town other than their LHAs and LPHs, and they lack organic AEW.
 

rampant

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
As a matter of interest, can the F-35B be catapulted?

If not, will our aircraft be able to cross deck with US carriers which (obviously) lack the ski ramp that our ships have?
If they can get off the deck of the USS Wasp, which is 100ft shorter that of the Queen Elizabeth, they can easliy get off the big carriers, though weight carried and damage to the surface may be issues.
 
I look forward to seeing photographs of them doing this through LFA7 (Mach loop) in Wales at some point.

The guy who videoed this normally posts from LFA7 so I'll keep an eye out for it.
You mean like this?
Regards,
MM
 
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Well @Magic_Mushroom a well cast fly deserves a strike.

I have indeed voiced an opinion that selling the F-35, one of the West’s biggest, most costly, most advanced, most sensitive weapon systems (cutting edge ‘crown jewels’) to Turkey, is a very bad idea.
https://fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RL30563.pdf

Yes, they are deeply imbedded in the program, but, they are not not indispensable.

Pakistan bought F-16’s that were never delivered.
The U.S.-Pakistan F-16 fiasco

Iran bought F-4’s and F-14’s that were delivered.

I wonder which one of those decisions has caused the US and its allies/NATO partners the greatest angst? Or is that really a serious question?

More than 40 years after Iran acquired F-4’s and F-14 Tomcats from the United States, some are still flying. In 1969, the Shah successfully negotiated a deal for 130 F-4Es, the latest variant of that type. The advanced reconnaissance capabilities faster and longer-ranged than any other comparable combat aircraft in that part of the world at that time were very impressive. In 1971 he had them.

Iran at the time was an ally, and operations over the USSR were in cooperation with the USAF with Operation Dark Genie at the start flown by mixed Iranian-U.S. crews. In 1973 the U.S. government organised a fly-off for Iranian shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi of an F-14 against an F-15 and the Shah promptly placed an order for the Tomcat. One for 80 F-14 Tomcats another for seven Boeing E-3 Sentry AWACS which was still in development the F-14 brand new.

Both orders faced fierce resistance in the U.S. Congress owing to cost and complexity but the Shah ordered the Iranian bank credit Grumman so that the company could build the 80 F-14s for Iran plus spare parts and 284 Phoenix missiles at a cost of $2 billion. Seventy-nine of the Tomcats delivered before the Islamic Revolution forced the shah into exile. in 1978 the Soviets attempted to retaliate by sending MiG-25s on a recon overflight of Iran, Iranian F-14s painted the MiGs with their radars and apparently no other flights appeared for the next 10 years.

The Iranian decision to buy these was made in the 60s, when the Iranians with huge oil and gas income decided to buy the best combat aircraft available. With Great Britain in the process of withdrawing from East of the Suez the Shah presented himself to the U.S. public as a protector of peace and stability in the Middle East who could fill the vacuum the British were creating.

The Iranians weren’t just buying aircraft but acquiring entire weapon systems, aircraft, avionics, weapons and support infrastructure and why Iran remains capable of operating its surviving F-4’s and F-14s today. In late February 1979, Iran had almost 223 operational Phantoms, though many are now grounded it may still have between 50–75 F-4s still in service. Among these some original F-4Ds updated with improved avionics, including limited look-down radar.

Tehran is believed to operate a fleet of about 60 F-14s even if its number of combat-capable aircraft is unknown. The Tomcats have been ‘modernized' to the F-14AM standard in order to extend their operative life until 2030. Domestic upgrades include avionics (radar and RWR). Weapons: R-73E, AIM-54A, AIM-7E and AIM-9J are among the air-to-air missiles adapted to the aircraft’s fire control system. They can also carry the AIM-54A+ “Fakour-90” missile: a domestically upgraded, partially reverse-engineered version of the AIM-54 Phoenix.

Iran, no longer under the Shah, is definitely not a Western ally, and certainly does not promote stability in the ME!! If anything it is a major headache!! And becoming more so by the day!!

Turkey, ally?? Certainly been a reluctant ally. As far back as 2015 doubts were being expressed. Nothing much has changed, if anything, got worse.
Turkey is no American Ally

While the F-35 was designed to be exportable, and reverse engineering is difficult, and there are measures in place to keep secrets inaccessible
http://www.militaryaerospace.com/ar...sue-5/special-report/mission-to_keep_the.html

The fact is that it was the ‘gift’ given to the Russians by the British Labour government and its pro-Soviet Minister of Trade, Sir Stafford Cripps, that provided technical information and a license to manufacture the Rolls-Royce Nene centrifugal-flow jet engine. A move even Russians could hardly believe. This reverse-engineered engine then produced as the Soviet Klimov RD-45 jet engine powering the MiG-15 and cost allied lives in the Korean war, and who know how the course of history was changed.

History sadly has a habit of repeating itself.
 
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Well @Magic_Mushroom a well cast fly deserves a strike.

I have indeed voiced an opinion that selling the F-35, one of the West’s biggest, most costly, most advanced, most sensitive weapon systems (cutting edge ‘crown jewels’) to Turkey, is a very bad idea.
https://fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RL30563.pdf

Yes, they are deeply imbedded in the program, but, they are not not indispensable.

Pakistan bought F-16’s that were never delivered.
The U.S.-Pakistan F-16 fiasco

Iran bought F-4’s and F-14’s that were delivered.

I wonder which one of those decisions has caused the US and its allies/NATO partners the greatest angst? Or is that really a serious question?

More than 40 years after Iran acquired F-4’s and F-14 Tomcats from the United States, some are still flying. In 1969, the Shah successfully negotiated a deal for 130 F-4Es, the latest variant of that type. The advanced reconnaissance capabilities faster and longer-ranged than any other comparable combat aircraft in that part of the world at that time were very impressive. In 1971 he had them.

Iran at the time was an ally, and operations over the USSR were in cooperation with the USAF with Operation Dark Genie at the start flown by mixed Iranian-U.S. crews. In 1973 the U.S. government organised a fly-off for Iranian shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi of an F-14 against an F-15 and the Shah promptly placed an order for the Tomcat. One for 80 F-14 Tomcats another for seven Boeing E-3 Sentry AWACS which was still in development the F-14 brand new.

Both orders faced fierce resistance in the U.S. Congress owing to cost and complexity but the Shah ordered the Iranian bank credit Grumman so that the company could build the 80 F-14s for Iran plus spare parts and 284 Phoenix missiles at a cost of $2 billion. Seventy-nine of the Tomcats delivered before the Islamic Revolution forced the shah into exile. in 1978 the Soviets attempted to retaliate by sending MiG-25s on a recon overflight of Iran, Iranian F-14s painted the MiGs with their radars and apparently no other flights appeared for the next 10 years.

The Iranian decision to buy these was made in the 60s, when the Iranians with huge oil and gas income decided to buy the best combat aircraft available. With Great Britain in the process of withdrawing from East of the Suez the Shah presented himself to the U.S. public as a protector of peace and stability in the Middle East who could fill the vacuum the British were creating.

The Iranians weren’t just buying aircraft but acquiring entire weapon systems, aircraft, avionics, weapons and support infrastructure and why Iran remains capable of operating its surviving F-4’s and F-14s today. In late February 1979, Iran had almost 223 operational Phantoms, though many are now grounded it may still have between 50–75 F-4s still in service. Among these some original F-4Ds updated with improved avionics, including limited look-down radar.

Tehran is believed to operate a fleet of about 60 F-14s even if its number of combat-capable aircraft is unknown. The Tomcats have been ‘modernized' to the F-14AM standard in order to extend their operative life until 2030. Domestic upgrades include avionics (radar and RWR). Weapons: R-73E, AIM-54A, AIM-7E and AIM-9J are among the air-to-air missiles adapted to the aircraft’s fire control system. They can also carry the AIM-54A+ “Fakour-90” missile: a domestically upgraded, partially reverse-engineered version of the AIM-54 Phoenix.

Iran, no longer under the Shah, is definitely not a Western ally, and certainly does not promote stability in the ME!! If anything it is a major headache!! And becoming more so by the day!!

Turkey, ally?? Certainly been a reluctant ally. As far back as 2015 doubts were being expressed. Nothing much has changed, if anything, got worse.
Turkey is no American Ally

While the F-35 was designed to be exportable, and reverse engineering is difficult, and there are measures in place to keep secrets inaccessible
http://www.militaryaerospace.com/ar...sue-5/special-report/mission-to_keep_the.html

The fact is that it was the ‘gift’ given to the Russians by the British Labour government and its pro-Soviet Minister of Trade, Sir Stafford Cripps, that provided technical information and a license to manufacture the Rolls-Royce Nene centrifugal-flow jet engine. A move even Russians could hardly believe. This reverse-engineered engine then produced as the Soviet Klimov RD-45 jet engine powering the MiG-15 and cost allied lives in the Korean war, and who know how the course of history was changed.

History sadly has a habit of repeating itself.

Bit of an optimistic assessment of the Iranian F-14’s.
They often carry an A2A version of the old Hawk SAM and are primarily used as willy wavers avd mini AWACS.
A very complex and maintenance intensive platform rather flat footed by the American advisors trashing key systems on their way out the door. It took Iran a very long time to successfully reactivate the knobbled ones.
 
The following is probably not worth a thread of its own. Exclusive: Lockheed Martin to propose stealthy hybrid of F-22 and...

Japan is looking for proposals for a new jet fighter, and Lockheed Martin is proposing a sort of hybrid of the F-22 and F-35 which will apparently be better than either.
U.S. defense contractor Lockheed Martin Corp plans to offer Japan a stealth fighter design based on its export-banned F-22 Raptor and advanced F-35 Lightning II aircraft, two sources said.

Lockheed has discussed the idea with Japanese defense ministry officials and will make a formal proposal in response to a Japanese request for information (RFI) after it receives permission from the U.S. government to offer the sensitive military technology, said the sources, who have direct knowledge of the proposal.
The proposed aircraft “would combine the F-22 and F-35 and could be superior to both of them,” said one of the sources.
Japan is already buying the F-35, but they are looking to introduce an air superiority type starting in 2030.
Japan, which is already buying the radar-evading F-35 to modernize its inventory, also wants to introduce a separate air superiority fighter in the decade starting 2030 to deter intrusions into its airspace by Chinese and Russian jets.
The Japanese project is called the "F3", and is estimated to cost roughly $40 billion.
Although the Japanese stealth aircraft program, dubbed the F-3, was conceived as a domestic effort estimated to cost around $40 billion, Tokyo has recently sought international collaboration in a bid to share the expense and gain access to technology it would otherwise have to develop from scratch.
The F3 project may involve collaboration between Japanese and foreign companies. Engines, radar, and other components are to be made in Japan.
Any aircraft built with international partners must have Japanese-designed engines and radar, however, and feature other components made locally, the other source said. Mitsubishi Heavy Industries tested a prototype stealth jet in 2016 that cost the Japanese government $350 million to develop.
For the F3 project, the Japanese are looking at domestic development, joint development, and possibly increasing the performance of existing aircraft. No decision has been made yet on what path to pursue.
“We are considering domestic development, joint development and the possibility of improving existing aircraft performance, but we have not yet come to any decision,” a Ministry of Defense spokesman said on Friday.
The Japanese are also talking to Boeing and BAE about the project.
In addition to a proposal from Lockheed, Japan is hoping for responses from Boeing Co, which makes the F/A-18 Super Hornet multirole fighter, and BAE Systems Plc, which is part of the consortium that built the Eurofighter Typhoon high-altitude interceptor.
I should point out that while the proposed F-22/F-35 hybrid makes for an eye-catching story "hook", I have my doubts about the practicality of actually developing a genuinely new plane just for the Japanese market. I suspect that a more realistic path would be either a joint development with another country, or an F-35++ or Typhoon++.

The talks with Boeing might be with respect to a fall-back plan of upgrading their F-15s in case the F-3 project doesn't bear fruit in a reasonable time frame.

It is interesting to note that neither Dassault nor Saab are mentioned in the news story.
 
Bit of an optimistic assessment of the Iranian F-14’s.
Not mine. I know nothing. Fact is they are still a capable platform, and, it is never sensible to underestimate enemies.

A very complex and maintenance intensive platform rather flat footed by the American advisors trashing key systems on their way out the door. It took Iran a very long time to successfully reactivate the knobbled ones.
Undisputed...but...the question still unanswered after 36 years, is how Iran has managed to keep its F-14 Tomcat fighters flying since the Islamic revolution of 1979 given the highly specific characteristics of the aircraft, its systems, and the embargoes that were supposed to isolate its regime from Western democracies, especially, the United States.

Tomcats entered service shortly before the F-15 Eagle, an aircraft that remains in service today. In service in 1975, it was the first operational fourth-generation jet fighter that combined high speed, high maneuverability, and sophisticated avionics and armament.

Did the Tomcat need to go as early as it did. In 1991 the last variant of the Tomcat, the F-14D came into service with a digital “glass” cockpit and APG-71 radars and better integration of air-to-ground munitions. 37 of the new type were manufactured and eighteen refitted from F-14As. A total of 712 were ultimately produced through 1991.

While American F-14s only shot down five hostile aircraft, during the Iraq Iran war Iranian Tomcats were deployed to defend Iranian airspace. These proving superior to Iraqi MiGs, Su-20s and Mirages, the Tomcat’s radar so powerful that the Iranian Air Force used it as an improvised AWACs plane that identified hostile attackers and directed friendly aircraft to intercept them along with its own long-range missiles in the battle.

Aviation historian Tom Cooper attributing over 160 aerial victories to Iranian F-14s.
Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units in Combat
The Tomcat proved itself to be one of the great American fighters of its era in the hands of both U.S. Navy and Iranian Air Force.

Modernised Super Tomcats were proposed to the US Navy with new avionics that would have made it fully capable as a multirole fighter. One variant, the Attack Super Tomcat 21, would have featured an advanced AESA radar, vector-thrust engines (the engines nozzles could change pitch to improve maneuverability), and ability to supercruise at Mach 1.2 without using the afterburner.

The Navy chose the F-18E/F Hornet. Not quite as optimized for air-to-air combat, but excellent performance, based on fly-by-wire technology, less money and time to fly and maintain. The choice between Super Tomcat or Hornet involved a trade-off, and the Hornet won.

Iran may not be the most friendly guys on the block, but they are not complete dummies, and... nor are the Turks.
 
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The huge problem the Tomcat faced, is it was the very cutting edge of 1960’s technology, and all the problems cutting edge 1960’s technology faced.
1 hrs flying time translating into 200 man hours of maintenance.

Although the F-14’s still working at the time of the Iran Iraq war performed impressively, so did their F-4’s. The Iranians ace card was their pilots, they were American trained and extremely good, smart natural pilots who thought and fought like the best western pilots.
Read up on Operation Kaman 99.

They quickly ran out of F-14’s as they broke and spares ran out. They ran a huge clandestine parts harvesting operation that got parts, but the Americans quickly closed that down by scrapping all the spares, gutting systems from museum and stored planes, and banning exports of OEM. equivalents. By using Russian parts and their own fairly competent engineering skills, the Iranians eventually got about 25 working again. FWIW, the Israelis have been occasional and helpful agents in keeping the IRIAF operational. They were close allies before the revolution, and the Israelis like to retain options for the future.

Are the Iranians smart? Before the revolution, they had the best trained, best led and best equipped military in the region by a country mile. They get modern gear again and they would be a huge problem. They aren’t Arabs, and they are a natural ‘martial’ race who’s ground forces have performed impressively in Lebanon and Syria.
The Americans put a lot if effort into stopping the Russiabs selling the Iranians up to date fighters.
The IRIAF with new model Sukhois would be a major regional problem.
 
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An interesting development re regional development, and sale of high tech 5th Gen to ‘allies’. The rather lacklustre progress of the Russian FGFA project with India brings up the possibility of F-35 sales to India. Might just soak up the numbers that would have gone to Turkey, and cut into Russian sales to India thereby depriving them of funds for the T-50 project. Sort of a win win really.

And a further development though still only conjecture, continuing murmurs of a possibly a more cost effective resurrection of an improved updated F-22 production in a US/Japanese collaboration. Certainly an alternative that could prove cheaper for them than their goal of producing one alone, and increased aggressive Chinese expansion in the area.

While the US would be unlikely to do it on their own despite a growing perception it may have been terminated a tad early, the Japanese may well see the excellent synergy between the F-22 and F-35’s they are buying and fund the project. The F-22 is a reasonably mature weapon system that was built with future improvements in mind.
 
...The rather lacklustre progress of the Russian FGFA project with India brings up the possibility of F-35 sales to India...
Let me get this right: one of your concerns regarding Turkish F-35 procurement is the danger of the technology being compromised. However, in the next breath you describe an F-35 sale to India as a ‘win-win’?!!!!!!

Why not deliver some F-35s to Ramenskoye and cut out the middle-man?!!

...a further development though still only conjecture, continuing murmurs of a possibly a more cost effective resurrection of an improved updated F-22 production in a US/Japanese collaboration...
I suspect this Boeing suggestion has as much to do with ensuring the F-3 is still born.

Regards,
MM
 
Good heavens...I think my float bobbled. :)

I suppose it could be a perception of ‘allies’. Cutting funds that help develop Russian systems, rather than giving technology to those who are buying Russian anti-aircaft missile systems that threaten the F-35. The F-35 was developed to be exported. But ‘who’ you sell it too is also a big part of the equation.

Boeing suggestion that would invigorate a LM product??? Surely not.

The F-3 undoubtedly has huge promise...but.
Japan to Delay Development of New Stealth Fighter

China’s aggressive expansion is worthy of note. Numbers contain a power of their own.
The Rise of China: Will it lead to a security dilemma in the Asia-Pacific?
Would seem to make sense to look for allies with numbers.
 
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I suspect this Boeing suggestion has as much to do with ensuring the F-3 is still born.

Regards,
MM
There ya go.

It’s a spoiler to clear the field for F/A-XX or whatever it’s called this week.

Now the F-35 is up and running, the next game in town is an air superiority fighter, and McBoeing want that prize,
 
The F-22 is a reasonably mature weapon system that was built with future improvements in mind.

Not really.

The F-22 was a victim of fast improving LO manufacturing technology and its technology was rapidly succeeded even when it was in production.
Each F-22 was basically a hand made plane, the F-35 was the first LO platform that could be mass produced without the need for exquisite manufacturing processes and could be used in the real world without the huge maintenance overheads that the F-22 and B-2 incurring on their generation of LO skins.
 
Logically any modern system has that in mind.

If those methods and evolved LO manufacturing technology can be applied in a modernised F-22 with someone else willing to chip in with production...and, proves cheaper for a than ground up for the Japanese, then it remains a possibility.

The budget for the intended modernisation of the US military has to be spread over all services, and to cater with a new space command.
 
Now the F-35 is up and running, the next game in town is an air superiority fighter, and McBoeing want that prize,
Undoubtedly...and why it is unlikely that restarting the F-22 production is a Boeing idea.
I suspect this Boeing suggestion has as much to do with ensuring the F-3 is still born.
...and with the recent experience of costs and the F-35, tried and true upgrading remains an alternative.
 

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