F-Lynx is go

#2
Oh for fucks sake are they serious? Why can't we just buy a proven design, NH90 got mentioned as an alternative IIRC, and negotiate some sort of deal to manufacture them in the UK so that the government can keep the guys down in Yeovil employed for a bit loonger.
 
#3
Brick said:
Oh for fucks sake are they serious? Why can't we just buy a proven design, NH90 got mentioned as an alternative IIRC, and negotiate some sort of deal to manufacture them in the UK so that the government can keep the guys down in Yeovil employed for a bit loonger.

NH90 isn't really 'proven' and because of its size would have meant the SH world would have thrown their teddy out of the Solar System and cried to Torpy. And we all know the crabs have a PR unit the size of several Regiments of Chally IIs. And lifting blokes isn't really what we want it to do. We need a utility aircraft. The trouble is, it is almost impossible to try and quantify 'utility' to the bean counters. We actually need an airborne Land Rover/WMIK. It is very hard to get an aircraft off the shelf, for the budget that ticks all the boxes. Unfortunately, FLynx hardly ticks any of the boxes. But we will rewrite our role to suit our budget and the capability of the aircraft.


*cough*

*cough*
 
#4
The Lynx cabin is just too small for it's Army role.
The useful load in kilos, that the Lynx can lift is not sufficient.
The Gem was never powerful enough to lift the required load even if the transmission could take the torque but the 'New' RR/Honeywell delivers 1,300 shp and may be up to the job, even if it is known to have problems with fine sand which an improved intake 'Filter' may cure.
A bigger aircraft is required but then as has been said, The RAF would want to operate the a/c.
john
 
#5
Lets go back to a real helicopter
 

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#7
Any reason other than cash that we couldnt buy the blackhawk helicopter with the gun ?
 
#8
I wonder what they are going to do with the 2 MI 18s that are at Boscomb, Lynx replacment on the cheap?
 
#9
Can someone who knows about these things explain to me what a realistic number of different types of helicopter we need?

Leaving aside Apache, we use Merlins, Lynx, Chinooks and Seakings. Am I right in thinking Puma has now been retired?

How many roles are there? Surely we only need a heavy lift capability, (chinook) and a utility helcopter that can also be navalised, (Merlin? Blackhawk/Seahawk?) Seahawk even comes in a S&R variant which would obviously help with commonality and costs.
 
#10
Toasted_Giant said:
Can someone who knows about these things explain to me what a realistic number of different types of helicopter we need?

Leaving aside Apache, we use Merlins, Lynx, Chinooks and Seakings. Am I right in thinking Puma has now been retired?

How many roles are there? Surely we only need a heavy lift capability, (chinook) and a utility helcopter that can also be navalised, (Merlin? Blackhawk/Seahawk?) Seahawk even comes in a S&R variant which would obviously help with commonality and costs.
We also use BELL412,BELL212, Dauphin, Squillel,SS61n,Agusta 109, and Puma is to be retired by 2010
 
#11
tropper66 said:
Toasted_Giant said:
Can someone who knows about these things explain to me what a realistic number of different types of helicopter we need?

Leaving aside Apache, we use Merlins, Lynx, Chinooks and Seakings. Am I right in thinking Puma has now been retired?

How many roles are there? Surely we only need a heavy lift capability, (chinook) and a utility helcopter that can also be navalised, (Merlin? Blackhawk/Seahawk?) Seahawk even comes in a S&R variant which would obviously help with commonality and costs.
We also use BELL412,BELL212, Dauphin, Squillel,SS61n,Agusta 109, and Puma is to be retired by 2010
Tropper - those AFs you mention - are most of those in very small numbers for incredibly specific roles? (ie Agusta is part of SF IIRC?)
 
#12
8 flight dont have A109s now they got new Eurocopters back in the summer, the brand new 109s are in the Royal sqn
 
#13
tropper66 said:
Lets go back to a real helicopter
I totally agree! A proper helicopter. :D




The Lynx cabin is just too small for it's Army role.
No its not. (If you rewrite the role of the AAC)



Can someone who knows about these things explain to me what a realistic number of different types of helicopter we need?
Heavy lift - Chinook
Medium lift - Merlin
Kill things - Apache
Utility. This is where it gets difficult to quantify. Ideally you want an aircraft that has a reasonable lift capacity when required. Lets say it has the ability to carry 8 fully tooled up blokes (with this, it could do CASEVAC or FAME). ISTAR, again, ideally it should have the ability to be a good platform able to carry a decent amount of sensors for a suitable period of time on station. Airborne command post. CSW (Crew served weapon) should be a dedicated station and not mean a compromise in reduction of carrying ability due to volume of the cabin. And the main thing is it should be able to operate worldwide with little compromise in performance. I'll allow you to google to find the answer.

The first three roles are fairly easy to fill as the types are pretty predictable and specific. 'Utility' can cover whatever you can afford/need and is often perceived as a 'luxury' but often forgotten because of the multitude of tasks it can carry out. If a 4 man team needs to get inserted into a position, would you use a Merlin? If you needed to overwatch a convoy, would you use a Chinook or a Merlin with a sensor bolted onto the side? If you needed to have an airborne co-ord on station, close in to the operation, would you use the above? If you didn't have enough AH assets but still needed to kill a medium or low value target, would you want an aircraft that had the ability to carry and use FFAR (Folding-Fin Aerial Rocket)? It really is the exam question. What do you want it to do and what can you afford?
 
#14
Cheers Flashy. I've got a fair idea what Google will give me already! :D

Sorry to be a dullard, but if we have a heavy lift capacity, what is the purpose of medium lift? Is it simply a costs issue*, or does Merlin give us something Chinook can't?

What exactly is FLynx role supposed to be?

*be that purchase and/or through life and/or operational costs.
 
#15
Toasted_Giant said:
Cheers Flashy. I've got a fair idea what Google will give me already! :D

Sorry to be a dullard, but if we have a heavy lift capacity, what is the purpose of medium lift? Is it simply a costs issue*, or does Merlin give us something Chinook can't?

What exactly is FLynx role supposed to be?

*be that purchase and/or through life and/or operational costs.
Little experience in this, but I'm going to guess: Smaller target, faster, more economical (so longer in the air as much as a cost-saver in fuel), better maneuverability and ability to land/operate in more varied terrain, cheaper and we can have a few more...
 
#16
Flashy whats you view of the new USMC UH-1Y Venom?
Or is that taking a step back even from future lynx?
 
#17
The Chinook can undersling a shite load of kit on two hooks as well as carrying troops. The Merlin fits in just below that with troop lift.

Its a case of having a nice variety of cutlery as opposed to just a racing spoon.


What exactly is FLynx role supposed to be?
Its role will be whatever we can afford. At present, its primary role will be ISTAR (with a nose mounted EO that has limited look down capability....).

It was originally called BLUH (Battlefield Light Utility Helicopter) but its fairly short of Utility as I've mentioned previously so they dropped the 'Utility' angle. It was then called BRH (Battlefield Recce Helicopter) but its not really ideally suited to the recce role (no weaponry apart from CSW) so no self defence munitions (akin to what Scimitar CRV has) and it's EO isn't exactly state of the art. The 'Battlefield' moniker is a bit of a misnomer too as it's not exactly battle survivable in todays thinking. So it will just be called 'H' (for Helicopter). As time marches on, costings increase and capability is unfortunately ripped out of it to meet the budget. If we got it today, now, it would increase our current capability but we are not looking at an ISD before 2014.

Has anyone seen a bit of a gap between the current Lynx fleet out of service date by 2012? Do they think that the handful of Mk9's being upgraded will fill the gap for at least two years? It goes very quiet when that question is asked. What are all the fat boy Lynx pilots going to do for two ears in the interim?
 
#18
Medium lift is basically when Heavy lift is overkill. But there's no truly simple answer. Things like range, AUW, speed.. a common thing is the size of the HLS, there's lots of factors.

Then there's platform considerations outside of the utility role and that can have a knock on effect.
Merlin is a good example of a cab designed to be a straight Wessex, Sea King replacement that's ended up in the SH role for political and economic reasons more than practical ones.

Benson would have been happy with more Wokkas and a more suitable Puma replacement. But the AAC arent' the only ones who don't get the final say.
 
#19
Actually Flashy - technically CH47 is a Medium Lift a/c.

Real Heavy lift helos are the US Sky Crane and the huge Russian HALO.
 
#20
instinct said:
Flashy whats you view of the new USMC UH-1Y Venom?
Or is that taking a step back even from future lynx?

You mean the aircraft that is currently available, can carry 10 blokes in full crash worthy seats, has a wide performance envelope (lift 3000kg, cruise at 150kts, has engines that work anywhere on the planet (and more importantly, above it too), can carry FFAR plus a dedicated pair of CSWs, has a very good and useful EO (under the nose), has fully integrated HMD (Helmet mounted displays), has quite a bit of growth left in it and is proven and is relatively cheap?

Naaa, it's rubbish. :roll:



theloggie said:
Actually Flashy - technically CH47 is a Medium Lift a/c.

Real Heavy lift helos are the US Sky Crane and the huge Russian HALO.
Yep, I know but in our world we consider the CH47 to be heavyish. :wink:
 
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