F-35 production question...

We all (know why) the USA was so against the old system of European “Colonies”, and the “unfair” advantages they brought to trade and the prosperity of those European countries.

It could be suggested, that the USA might re-evaluate its commitment to the (cost of the) defence of Europe, as the price necessary to maintain a presence within one of the USA’s most prosperous, sophisticated and compatible trading partners.

Many were relieved and overjoyed when the Warsaw Pact countries - and, the three Baltic States - were allowed to state their preferences and applied to join NATO (and the increasingly confused EU).

The traumatic wholesale (unresolved) changes to their nations’, countries, mindsets, economies, industries, societies, politics, can not - should STILL not - be underestimated !!

The “Peace Dividend” was a fcuking disaster!

I rejoice in the advent of “Cold War 2”.

It has thrown into focus, the real world dangers that Europe has always been subject to, and threatened by.

The USA should be aware that it is not a game of chequers that is been played. It has always been a game of chess.

Without the US committed to, and presence within, NATO; and, specifically without the US committed to, and presence within Europe; it is not inconceivable that the WHOLE of Europe could (eventually) fall under the greater influence of Russia :( .
The problem with European colonies flung all over the far reaches, is for another thread.

Sophisticated and compatible might be a bit of a stretch...Alien and assbackwards can be substituted more often then not. The relationship can best be described as business partners, we want your money and vice versa. I have no desire to be a European by any means. If you make something I like I will buy it, if not I won't waste my time and money on it. We are politically at the opposite ends of the spectrum, moving away from each other at Warp 3.

We are not playing checkers, we are playing poker. Western Europe does not like Trump or the United States very much, but we are to big to be ignored. The difference is that they are holding a pair of 5's while the United States has Aces and 8's...

Western Europe will do business with whomever gives them the best deal, look at the German and Russian relationship. But the future lies East.
 
I think it's really just a matter of balance. Turkey are undoubtedly difficult partners and I genuinely share some of your concerns regarding their access to F-35 if they're allowed to take them home. Equally, even in the age of Erdogan, I'd say it''s better to have them inside our tent pissing out than outside pissing in...to quote Mother Theresa! :)
It would appear that as negative as it may seem, there remain doubts about this situation and these have come up again, and as much as it would be desirable for them to remain as allies they are not making it easy. Even Mother T may have had limits, as saintly as she may have been.

It would seem that some deadlines have come and gone with regard to Turkey’s S-400 purchase. The US Patriot system had been offered instead of the S-400 however this could well be halted, along with the F-35’s
Pence: ‘We will not stand idly by’ as Turkey purchases S-400

Time enough has elapsed for some serious worries about the supply chain to have been resolved, and, other recent customers, to make up for a large order lost.

Even the EU has become a little disenchanted.
‘Change it now!’ Turkey FURIOUS as EU votes to STOP accession talks

Regrettably these are negative. But...it would seem, I am not alone. Recent circumstances and Turkey’s drift to new allies are clear to see.
WARNING TO TRUMP: Iran leader GLOATS with Putin and Erdogan as US pulls out of Syria

Is it strange that the Trump/US should wish to extricate itself from the Middle East toxic quagmire? The ME ‘Spring' has slowly become a rather bleak messy ‘Winter of discontent' with Democracy and Islam seemingly rather reluctant to mix.
 
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And the story makes it clear that for Turkey the issue is about price and technology, while for the US it is about finding things to which political strings can be attached.
Akhmetov said it was important for Turkey to “get as many modern technologies as possible … For Turkey's burgeoning defence industry, it is not only critical to be able to produce, but also to export new weapon systems,” he said.

Turkey has an issue, he said, “with European and U.S. governments trying to bind technical cooperation to political demands” which “means Turkey cannot replicate or resell weapon systems to third countries without the authorisation of the companies that make them.”

Akhmetov said the F-35 deal with Turkey, like the S-400, “is not only a defence project but also a commercial project.”
The US has refused both finance options and technology transfer, which pretty much kills the deal so far as the Turks are concerned.
The U.S. administration made its offer before Feb. 15, and then increased the price of the multi-billion dollar system in return for quick delivery, according to the officials who are familiar with the talks but not authorized to speak to the media. The proposal didn’t include a loan agreement nor a technology sharing pact, a key Turkish demand, they said.

Turkey said in its response that it can’t accept the U.S. offer and negotiations came to a standstill, the officials said.
The US had refused to sell Patriot missiles to Turkey for years, and only reversed themselves when Turkey reached a deal to buy S-400s instead.
Having balked for years at selling Turkey the Patriot system, the U.S. State Department notified Congress in December that it had proposed doing just that, a gambit designed to get Ankara to halt an agreement with Russia for a S-400-based system, which could compromise NATO technology.
If the Turks were to buy Patriots they would not only not get the commercial terms they want, they would also apparently be subject to the same sort of "strings attached" arm twisting that they are facing with F-35s. The more the US threatens Turkey with respect to American control over Turkey's F-35s, the less attractive the planes may start to appear to the Turks.
 
There now appears to be ongoing activity with regard to the question which has been hanging quietly for a while.

The head of American forces in Europe and top uniformed officer in NATO Gen. Curtis Scaparrotti has just said that if Turkey goes through with its decision to buy a Russian air defense system, he would recommend the Pentagon refuse to give Ankara its planned purchase of the F-35 joint strike fighter.

Testifying in front of the Senate Armed Services Committee, stated that it would be his “best military advice" that sales to Turkey of the F-35 be cut, should that nation buy the S-400 air defense system.

This comes just weeks after the Munich Security Conference where U.S. Vice President Mike Pence warned Turkey that “we will not stand idly by while NATO allies purchase weapons from our adversaries. We cannot ensure the defense of the West if our allies grow dependent on the East."
Top US general in Europe: Don’t give Turkey F-35 if they buy Russian system

Even Iran appears interested.
 
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That there were serious problems in replacing suppliers for parts and services provided by Turkey was undeniable, that there have been serious efforts to rectify this to a degree now further confirmed by yesterdays report from Reuters.

Reuters a source considered least biased, based on objective and factual reporting, due to proper sourcing of information.
Exclusive: U.S. may soon pause preparations for delivering F-35s to Turkey | Reuters

The deterioration in relationships between Turkey and NATO, Turkey and the US, and Turkey and the EU has been increasingly apparent and as unfortunate as that is, it is continuing.

The world is in a serious state of flux, and with the increasingly connected world, and toxic news environment, coupled with ‘false news’ malicious propgandising, and trolling by certain countries it increasingly seems that no-one, and no country, seems immune to the growing instability that we presently see surrounding us.

The F-35 is possibly the worlds most expensive and comprehensive weapon system, involving most of whom could be considered the Free Worlds allies. The subject of whether it could be damaged or compromised is therefor a serious subject of great concern.
 
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There has always been an element of anti US/NATO sentiment in Turkey but this latest standoff will only be adding to it. This has been recognised in the US and they are reacting to it.
U.S. Lawmakers Talk Turkey to Ankara

And if there is growing doubt about Turkey receiving the F-35, this piece of news may not make them feel any better. Vice Admiral Mathias Winter, head of the Pentagon’s F-35 office, told Congress on Thursday that sales of the jets could be expanded to include five new countries – Singapore, Spain, Romania, Greece and Poland.
Pentagon eyes F-35 sales to Greece, Romania and Poland -U.S. official - Reuters

This was followed on Friday by by Defense Minister Evangelos Apostolakis suggesting it would be an important upgrading to the Greek Air Force.
Greece to examine F-35 acquisition, says defense minister | Kathimerini
 
There has always been an element of anti US/NATO sentiment in Turkey but this latest standoff will only be adding to it. This has been recognised in the US and they are reacting to it.
U.S. Lawmakers Talk Turkey to Ankara

And if there is growing doubt about Turkey receiving the F-35, this piece of news may not make them feel any better. Vice Admiral Mathias Winter, head of the Pentagon’s F-35 office, told Congress on Thursday that sales of the jets could be expanded to include five new countries – Singapore, Spain, Romania, Greece and Poland.
Pentagon eyes F-35 sales to Greece, Romania and Poland -U.S. official - Reuters

This was followed on Friday by by Defense Minister Evangelos Apostolakis suggesting it would be an important upgrading to the Greek Air Force.
Greece to examine F-35 acquisition, says defense minister | Kathimerini

I agree, Turkey has drifted away to the point of no return. It is time to make peace with that and treat them accordingly. It has bipartisan support, and nobody really likes or a gives a shit about Turkey anyway, so not much opposition will be felt.
 
Singapore have already signed for the initial few although I believe it has to get past the Senate first.

Of the others, I'd say that Poland is a dead cert, Romania unlikely and Spain will be cognisant that F-35B will be the only option that can keep them in the fixed wing carrier aviation game.

Central to that equation will probably be Australia whose Canberra LHDs are based on the Spanish San Juan design. If the RAAF or RAN decide to buy F-35B and follow Japan's example of converting a rotary wing carrier for STOVL, Madrid may follow suite and share modification R&D costs.

Regards,
MM
 
I agree, Turkey has drifted away to the point of no return. It is time to make peace with that and treat them accordingly. It has bipartisan support, and nobody really likes or a gives a shit about Turkey anyway, so not much opposition will be felt.
Paging @Crash . . . !! ;)
 
To the US and the Pro-Consul CG CENTCOM, Turkey is some distant vaguely Middle Eastern country that sits on the fold of the map with EUCOM. However to Europe and the UK, it's the extended front line against trouble spreading from the Middle East terrorism, irregular migration, smuggling, narcotics, people trafficking...

It's no coincidence that the British Embassy is the largest in Europe by over 100 staff and has just about every Government department represented there. Erdogan may be unpalatable to many (and his love-in with Putin is uncomfortable) but geography doesn't change. Turkey controls the entrance to the Black Sea and borders Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Greece and Bulgaria and has a de facto border with the Republic of Cyprus. All in all, a tough neighborhood.
 
To the US and the Pro-Consul CG CENTCOM, Turkey is some distant vaguely Middle Eastern country that sits on the fold of the map with EUCOM. However to Europe and the UK, it's the extended front line against trouble spreading from the Middle East terrorism, irregular migration, smuggling, narcotics, people trafficking...

It's no coincidence that the British Embassy is the largest in Europe by over 100 staff and has just about every Government department represented there. Erdogan may be unpalatable to many (and his love-in with Putin is uncomfortable) but geography doesn't change. Turkey controls the entrance to the Black Sea and borders Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Greece and Bulgaria and has a de facto border with the Republic of Cyprus. All in all, a tough neighborhood.
Not to mention the growing relationship between Turkey and China with their joint agreements on China's 'Belt and Road' strategy...

https://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/a...icipation-in-belt-and-road-partnership-137313
 

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