Eye for an Eye for an Eye

Discussion in 'Military History and Militaria' started by mora, May 24, 2006.

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  1. Between 4 and 5 on Tuesday morning, July 29, 1947, the Acre prison gallows were operated three times in quick succession. Avshalom Haviv, Yaakov Weiss and Meir Nakar, Irgun soldiers who had participated in the May 4th prison break which set free 41 Irgun and Lehi ( Stern ) members from that same Acre prison, were hanged by Captain Clough. Thirteen hours later, at 6 p.m., in a disused diamond polishing workshop in Netanya, Amihai Paglin, Irgun operations chief, hanged Clifford Martin and Marvin Paice, soldiers in the British army in Mandatory Palestine. They had been held as hostages in a vain attempt to dissuade the British from applying the death sentence.


     
  2. It's interesting mora but I'm not sure what point you are trying to make or what issue you are trying to debate. Israel regularly executes people who it sees as its enemies albeit without the judicial process normally associated with the death sentence (so I suppose it is more accurate to say murders people). Normally this is done in retaliation for some outrage carried out by Palestinian terrorists. So if you are saying nothing much has changed in the last 60 years and Israel has not learned the lessons from the time when members of the Yishuv conducted a terrorist campaign in support of their perceived rights for sovereignty I have to agree with you.
     
  3. I see, so what you're telling us is that the state of Israel was founded by terrorists, and that British retaliation for the murder of their soldiers back then was far lighter than the reactions displayed by the Israeli army when their soldiers are murdered by Palestinians today. Oh, and that terrorist acts by Jewish extremists help fascists spread their message of hate.
     
  4. Do you represent the Peoples front of Judea, or are you from the Popular Front?
     
  5. Terrorist acts are carried out by terrorists, simple To describe them as extremists, or militants or insurgents etc is just the usual doublespeak of apologists for terror.
    The Jewish state was indeed founded on terrorism, an uncomfortable historical fact especially given their undeniable policy of Lebensraum in the occupied territories.
     

  6. Terrorists targeting civilians. Irgun had as much right to view the British as illegal occupiers as the French "resistance" had had to view the Germans as illegal occupiers of France.

    How is murdering a woman who is sleeping with a German soldier because he can provide her with luxuries (chocolate, silk, extra rations) which a Frenchman cannot, a wholly justifiable tactic of war?

    Yes, it would have better if the Irgun had stronger-minded leaders who didn't scarifice their captives to their own fear of appearing " weak ".

    On The Hanging Drama:

    "The British Empire in the Middle East 1945-51" by William Roger Louis :

    Jorge Garvia Granados, a leading figure in the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine
    (UNSCOP), on this issue

    [​IMG]

    He referred to this incident

    From "The UN Report Prepared in 1948 for Ralphe Bunche, New UN Commissioner to Palestine" on Jewish terrorism as reported by the British Authorities:
    Those three "terrorists" didn't kill anyone, had fought in the Czech underground during the war on behalf of the SOE. Their hanging referred by Sumner Welles (1892 – 1961), Under Secretary of State in US, as murder.


    [​IMG]

    For the WWII Resistance movements, and for their British backers in SOE who had been ordered by Prime Minister Winston Churchill to "set Europe ablaze," they were freedom fighters. Their clandestine work of sabotage and ambush, destroying bridges and railroads, assassinating German officials and their local collaborators, was a wholly justifiable tactic of a war of national liberation. And it was the Nazi occupiers of Europe during World War II who characterized the work of the French and Czech and Polish Resistance movements, as backed by Britain's Special Operations Executive, as 'terrorism."

    Similar tactics were used against the British in Palestine by Israeli "terrorists" (or freedom fighters) like the future Prime Ministers Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir. For example, the Zionist organization Irgun preceded many of its attacks (notably the 1946 King David Hotel, the military HQ section, bombing) with warnings to the press, the target, or the authorities of the British Mandate of Palestine. They were nevertheless considered terrorists by the British. Irgun had as much right to view the British as illegal occupiers as the French had had to view the Germans as illegal occupiers of France.
     
  7. All this is very well. However, one item was missing from your descritpion regarding the bodies of the 2 Int Corps Sgts which did more to cause the reaction amongst the forces in Palestine than just the fact the lads were executed. It was that both bodies were booby-trapped and when the attempt was made to get the bodies down the devices exploded. This caused revulsion amongst the security forces
    and no doubt helped in the action that followed.

    Furthermore, the 3 caught may or may not have killed anyone but soldiers and prison warders were killed during the Acre breakout and those captured were executed for being part of this ie an accomplice, as was the policy at the time :roll:
     
  8. The difference between SOE in Europe and Jewish terrorists in Israel is we were fighting to liberate a recognised Nation State from an illegal occupation, whilst the Stern gang etc were using unlawful terrorism against the imperial power prior to their subsequent illegal policy of ethnic cleansing against the Palestinians. The Holocaust does not excuse jewish atrocities.
     
  9. Little hook, big fish ...

    Can I take it from your remarks then that Palestinians who view Israelis as illegal occupiers are justified in killing Israeli soldiers and civilians if it helps to end the occupation ? Or do different rules apply depending on your ethnic origin ? Go on, justify that using simplistic moral absolutes.

    For the record, I'd characterise Palestinians who blow themselves up in public places and launch Qassam rockets at settlements as scum who should end up in a shallow grave, alongside Israeli soldiers who slot children and bulldoze houses on top of grannies.

    Seriously, for any semblance of peace to descend on that part of the world both sides need to stop seeing themselves as victims of unprovoked aggression, stop seeing the world in black and white and start looking for a compromise. No-one will like it, but it beats the current situation. I don't particularly like seeing terrorist murderers become politicians - but it beats the alternative. By the way, terrorist murderers is a personal view based on the fact I'm in the organisation they shoot at - but I do acknowledge others may form a different view. And do I refer to PIRA or IRGUN ? - well, both.

    Edited to add: And as you can see from Warrior_Poets ramblings your simplistic claptrap really does encourage your enemies. Well done.
     

  10. For the Full long essay :

    The Sanctity of Death:. The History of Death Penalty in Israel. Shai J. Lavi.
    www.as.huji.ac.il/conf/ex-force/Lavi.pdf


    According to this source ( PAUL BAGON ) at least in Britain itself, it was the histerical media reporting


    THE IMPACT OF THE JEWISH UNDERGROUND UPON ANGLO JEWRY: PAUL BAGON

    http://users.ox.ac.uk/~metheses/Bagon.pdf

     
  11. I despise terrorism and that includes State terrorism, Israel are in direct breach of International law in the occupied territories except there ain't no oil there is there? Wonder what the reaction of the U.S would be if there were?

    I do not intend to encourage my enemies, I merely seek to point out the double standards between Jewish terror and Palestinian terror. They are like fleas arguing about who owns the dog as far as I'm concerned. Perhaps the world would be a better place had Israel not been artificially created to assuage the collective guilt of the west? The fact remains that sooner or later they will indeed have to compromise except of course, the likes of Hamas won't ,nor will the Jewish fundamentalists.
    Let them fight it out amongst themselves I say, let their God decide. To try to compare the middle eastern thugs to the brave men and women of SOE is an gross insult.
     
  12. The deaths were among the irgun members themselves:

    "...In a carefully planned attack, the Irgun exploded a massive bomb against the prison walls
    of Acre gaol and using a ‘column of 18 stolen vehicles’ released many of the prison’s
    inmates. Acre Prison had been the execution site of Irgun members in April and also
    operated as Palestine’s central jail, housing many of the Irgun’s captured members.
    The prison was therefore a highly symbolic target for the Irgun, and the ease and
    effectiveness with which it was attacked was very embarrassing for the British. The
    attack was, however, by no means a complete success for the Irgun, since nine of its
    members were killed in the fighting, and a further nine captured by the British
    forces."...


    From Palestine to Northern Ireland John Newsinger

    http:www.palgrave.com/pdfs/0333793854.pdf



    The three Jewish terrorists were SOE members who served in the British Army!


    Land of Israel/Palestine wasn't crown hold but mandate by the league of nations , which declared the british was in breach of the mandate ( by not allowing jews fleeing the nazis to enter the land )

    As was reported in American media

    Time Magazine archive


    http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,887512,00.html

    World/PALESTINE
    Eye for an Eye for an Eye
    Aug. 11, 1947
    At the traditional time (4 a.m.) on the traditional day for executions (Tuesday), the British hanged three Jewish terrorists in the Acre prison. The three had been captured at the same prison twelve weeks before when they had released other terrorists in a costly raid.Scarcely were the terrorists' bodies buried than British troops began patrolling Zion Square in Jerusalem. The British had heard that the Irgun Zvai Leumi would try to hang, from the square's lone tree, two 20-year-old British sergeants it had captured as hostages.But the Irgun terrorists had chosen a forest preserve south of...


    The grisly news of the eucalyptus grove quickly spread through a land which had learned to expect an eye for an eye. Panicky Jews prepared to flee from Natanya. British troops grew sullen, angry, dangerous. That night, in Tel Aviv, British soldiers on foot and in armored cars lashed out in an unsoldierly demonstration. They smashed windows, beat Jews, fired Sten guns into a crowded bus. Five Jews were killed, 15 wounded. Next day, at the funeral for the five dead, mourners and police clashed again. The toll: 33 Jews injured. Said one resident of Natanya: "This cancels out the two sergeants."
     
  13. Well you train a mad dog, don't be suprised when it turns round and bites you on the Arrse!
     
  14. For your first paragraph, compromise has been looked at before, the end price was seen as too high (by one side or the other). Not really a case of unprovoked aggression in Israel's case if you look at it's history since statehood, it has faced 6 wars and 2 intifadas and constant terrorist / militant (whatever you like to term them) against civpop centres.

    As for your edit: Mora only tends to encourage his enemies if they disagree with his posts (however sensitive they might be considering that this is a British army kind of site).
    I am unsure as to whether (in his motives) he wants to provoke a negative 'backlash' here or maybe (this depends) web debate on the 'cut & pastes' which are points of military / historic interest.
    Israel's enemies generally need no encouragement though, such use as the word lebensraum previously in a thread, or 'der sturmer' in another are quite grotesque.
     
  15. mora, what you are saying is that we shouldnt have fought the Nazi's with whatever means we used or that as we did we can't condone the actions of the so called freedom fighters. If thats the case why did we libertate Europe, or is the only way the people of Israel feel they are able to thank the likes of my grandparents and uncles who fought the Nazis is to condone their murder?