Extras

#1
With this AGAI 67 in place was wondering what peoples thoughts are on the subject?

Is it worth the paperwork or do you prefer the quick resolution of a punch in the fizzog or a handfull of extras?

To that end what is the most anyone got in one sitting and for what mr meanor?
 
#2
Paper work is supposed to make sure of no improper use, otherwise AGAI 67 are extras formalised.

Don't think the Playstation Generation would take kindly to the choice!

Too many armchair lawyers looking for fast promotion or a wayout.

Use the system and stick to it.
 
#3
Take them round the back and give them a dig.
 
#4
claret_and_blue said:
Is it worth the paperwork or do you prefer the quick resolution of a punch in the fizzog or a handfull of extras?

To that end what is the most anyone got in one sitting and for what mr meanor?
Using violence as a leadership tool is bullying, intimidation and ultimately counter productive. Any level of management would be a fool if they thought they could "beat a soldier" into shape, or get away with it for that matter.
 
#5
'Back in the day' I had a few new troop staffies giving their welcome to the troop speech who used the 'I wont charge you, we'll just have a chat at the back of the garages' line. Every last member of the troop worked their socks off for them (willingly) and in return we got the worlds biggest umbrella over us held in place by the troop staffie.
We worked hard for him...he worked hard for us (early knock off, herfy handbags, sports afternoons galore by the pool at Krefeld) In each case the troop was the hardest working, hardest playing best troop in the regt. I knew of only one person to take up the offer of a chat, he suffered a bust nose but from then on got on really well with the ssgt and vice versa.

I agree bullying does not work, but honesty and respect does. Much more so than the seemingly crap systems being employed of late.
Maybe a return to days of old for a trial period would be worth while to gain a direct comparison between old and new.
Extras, ROP'S, a few days in guardroom nick all worked well and had done for many a year, why change something thats working as intended for the sake of lining the pockets of solicitors fighting human rights cases.

...DUCKS DOWN INTO STAGE 3 TRENCH TO AVOID INCOMING.......
 
#6
plasticbrummy
Much more so than the seemingly crap systems being employed of late.
Maybe a return to days of old for a trial period would be worth while to gain a direct comparison between old and new.
Extras, ROP'S, a few days in guardroom nick all worked well and had done for many a year, why change something thats working as intended for the sake of lining the pockets of solicitors fighting human rights cases.
Mmm, crap system employed of late. Firstly extras were illegal so left the giver open to disciplinary action if caught and also (probably more importantly) was open to abuse. AGAI 67 makes it fair across the board for everyone. It is intended to take the old illegal system of extras and formalise it. Funnily enough I remember speaking to my Great Grandfather and they used a system in the early years of the century very similar to AGAI 67, the difference was it was Regimental based and not Army wide.

I agree bullying does not work, but honesty and respect does.
Totally agree, respect is earned not given. But for a troop to work effectively that respect must be earned across all ranks. The Staffy does not carry the troop, he manages it. The Sgts, Cpls and LCpls carry the troop ensuring that the workforce work and keep in line. A Siggie should respect his Lancejack, the Lancjack his Cpl etc etc. How many times have you heard the Siggies slag off the Lancjack and the Cpls? It does not matter how good the Staffie is, if the rank structure does not hold and work correctly the troop will not function.

AGAI 67 is also intended to give back power to the lower ranks to enable them to inforce discipline. When I joined the Army (many moons ago) LCpls had power. They (mostly) did not abuse it but they had it, called you by your first name and vice versa but when gave an order you did it.
That does not often happen now because (IMHO) during the late 80's the bullying mantra was so high and the Army so scared of the leftist/liberal/Guardian twats that they stripped power away from junior NCOs incase they did abuse it.

Rant out.
 
#7
Agai 67 is ok but what do you do when it comes down from the top that jnco's need to start agai'ing more people to enhance their profile and get a better CR :(
 
#8
clayhead said:
Agai 67 is ok but what do you do when it comes down from the top that jnco's need to start agai'ing more people to enhance their profile and get a better CR :(
Which is definately happening.
 
#9
The principle behind AGAI 67 is sound - empowering and giving topcover to junior commanders, however I personally feel that it is all too often used as a cop-out. Too many people SNCO and above get their subordinates to issue an AGAI instead of having the moral courage to get the soldier in and giving a bloody good bollocking where it's due. Sometimes that's what's needed, not simply some paper certificate slap on the wrist but a quick "you screwed up, wind your neck in, job done, let's move on". Anyone agree?
 
#10
shaggy dog
i agree with the majority of your 'rant' although i did/do feel that extra's worked. you got a relatively minor punishment if you fecked up that didnt go on any records. I never really saw any abuse of that as such, except where a junior rodney got 30 odd extras for something. It just made the duties rota easier to work out, day on day off.........
As for AGAI Im not totally up to speed what that is, to me it is just another bit of red tape introduced by MOD to conform with/keep off the human rights brigade.
Im a firm believer in certain aspects of the forces being 'crown exempt' your in the army and if you screw up you take the consequences like a good disciplined soldier
 
#11
ok just googled agai 67............typical! too much to bother by fat ass reading through.
never mind just give them a slap on the wrist and a morning slopping out the cookhouse! oops cant do that anymore can we? :roll:
 
#12
PoisonDwarf said:
The principle behind AGAI 67 is sound - empowering and giving topcover to junior commanders, however I personally feel that it is all too often used as a cop-out. Too many people SNCO and above get their subordinates to issue an AGAI instead of having the moral courage to get the soldier in and giving a bloody good bollocking where it's due. Sometimes that's what's needed, not simply some paper certificate slap on the wrist but a quick "you screwed up, wind your neck in, job done, let's move on". Anyone agree?
Yes. Definately. Hardly ever happens anymore does it?
 
#13
PoisonDwarf

Too many people SNCO and above get their subordinates to issue an AGAI instead of having the moral courage to get the soldier in and giving a bloody good bollocking where it's due. Sometimes that's what's needed, not simply some paper certificate slap on the wrist but a quick "you screwed up, wind your neck in, job done, let's move on". Anyone agree?
If this is true in many units than it saddens me. It just proves that the SNCO's who have come through the system since it has softened are shite.

Totally agree with the bollocking. I also presumed and followed through with:

1. Fcuked up.... take a bollocking.

2. Fcuked up again..... severe bollocking and on the shit list for jobs.

3. Fcuked up again..... extras or charge (ROPs type) dependent on matter.

4. Fcuked up again..... tap the boards and get fined, or a stripy suntan.

I would have presumed that AGAI67 would at 3 to allow a for extras etc rather than giving extras.

Comments?
 
#14
RSD. I could not agree more with your views, and have on many occasions expressed the same sentiment only to be slapped down/laughed at and told im totally wrong. However in my view this kind of step is not only a common sense approach but gets you some kind of respect as you arn't seen to be a tosser who is out to get as many agai's under his belt and bods can't complain when they get punished as they've had enough chances.
 
#15
Anyone got, or know where I can find, an overview of said AGAI67?

The Serving Soldier section of the MoD site is a little on the large side!
 
#17
Yeah been looking at that badboy, and it's heavier on the eyes than Timmy Mallet shagging Vanessa Felps on a bouncy castle!!

Kind of picked up the gist of it, I can't see it catching on tbh.
 
#18
Cavalier

Kind of picked up the gist of it, I can't see it catching on tbh.
Cannot see it catching on! WTF, do you have a choice? Since when did it matter what the rank and file thought of a new piece of Mil legislation or any legitimate order. Alternatively, are you referring to the TA practices of Mil discipline?

67.020 This AGAI is not intended to apply to minor informal rebukes and corrections that are taken in the normal course of Service life; for example a sergeant major directing a soldier to pick up a piece of litter that he has just dropped or a JNCO ordering the re-cleaning of a weapon that is still dirty. This type of correction is taken to be the basis for the maintenance of routine discipline within the unit, to which the principles of proportionality and common sense apply.
Makes sense, means that J/SNCO's can use discretion and still bollock people.

67.021 It is important that accurate records are maintained and retained in every case no matter how minor the sanction awarded. The recording procedures set out in this AGAI are designed to meet the minimum reasonable requirement. The process must be transparent, accountable and open to scrutiny at all times.
Again necessary to ensure that each award is fair and equitable to all rather than dependent on how your SNCO felt at the time or how the dice rolled (if you are old enough).

AGAI 67 gives (or should give) credence and authority back to JNCOs (Corps mainly, rather than teeth arms as I presume that JNCOs still carry their authority in Inf etc). In an organisation that requires its people to realise that at times they must obey instantly an order, the necessity for JNCOs (as well as SNCOs) to have this authority is absolute.

Note I put "requires its people to realise" not that they should out of blind obedience at all times as I am fully aware that most of those serving can think for themselves and do quite a good rational job of it when called upon to do so.
 
#19
Redshaggydog said:
Cavalier

Kind of picked up the gist of it, I can't see it catching on tbh.
Cannot see it catching on! WTF, do you have a choice? Since when did it matter what the rank and file thought of a new piece of Mil legislation or any legitimate order. Alternatively, are you referring to the TA practices of Mil discipline?
Its exactly the same, it just seems a long winded procedure (with no simple idiots guide). I was nearly handing someone a verbal warning tonight as I'd got confused by the docs (learning how to fill in discipline forms takes a little time .. if this continus TA Sigs won't do any comms training at all)
 
#20
polar

Its exactly the same
Thought it might be.

I have seen a condensed version somewhere, I will see if I can find it and scan it or find out where it is electronically.

Any clarks have an idea........................ah stupid stupid stupid question.
 

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