Extra Duties- A way of ensuring discipline or ARRSE ?

#1
I have recently come accross a case in my unit where "extras" are being doled out like benefits to asylum seekers (metaphorically speaking, of course)
One soldier received two extras from his staffy, which was promptly doubled, by someone further up the chain (that was not the OC).
Also, others of higher standing receiving multiples of 5, and then...well the snowball effect springs to mind.
Although I appreciate there is a need to administer disciplinary action, without using the good old 252....isnt this a tad, well, illegal?
If I were to issue extras to soldiers, and they took issue with it, would I have opened myself up to a whole world of pain ?
There must be some rules regarding this, but I dont particurlarly want to spend my free time leafing through AA1955 or QR's (rather read PAM's myself!)
Any pointers from amongst the vast amount of knowledge which is the Royal Corps?
I dont want to go to DCM for a Barrackroom Lawyer, who would have simply "fell over" or "walked into a door" a few years ago! (not that I would ever condone such actions, you understand! :?
Although "extras" are great for filling weekend duties rosters!
 
#2
Extras!

'Extra duties' are more officially 'extra guards'. They can only be given for 'Guards offenses'.

Next...how many. The maximum that can be awarded is 14, by a CO in summary dealing. OCs can only give 7 in exceptional circumstances.

Next...how? 252 needn't be sought - we needlessly criminalise too many of our soldiers as it is. Extras can be awarded as a result of AGAI 67 action (see lots of my previous posts elsewhere on the site)

So, extras - tricky stuff. This will all change in the near future, when the new sanctions aimed at empowering junior command comes on stream.
 
#3
I remember receiving so many extras once when i was a siggie that my name was like a rash on the guard roster for 3 months.

Many years ago, The commanding officer was able to award a signaller 3 extra guards or picquets as a punishment on orders. Dont know if thats changed. It should be in the rights of a soldier pamphlet.
 
#6
Thanx 4 your prompt answers!
So its not really cricket...other than for Guard related offences....so the soldier whom I was referring to WAS treated a little unfairly, because of a VERY slight misdemeneur. (Maybe I was a smidge rapid to tell him to wind it in then!!!!)
There was nowt I can do anyway, It was all done above my level, i just wanted to know!
 
#7
Yes, but bear in mind 'the barrack room lawyer'. Extras are all well and good, but they allow a swift and relatively painless form of punishment (non-financial etc).

Kicking up a stink will galvanise the system into AGAI67 action - reprimands, fines etc etc.

Just do the extras, and move on! :D
 
#10
Ummm...it involves alcohol, a mess party, and a very pretty woman I'd never met before, who the Adjutant prompted me to 'go and dance with'.

Well, I was getting super leathered, and more and more 'tactile' with this filly, and I decided to try my luck and grab her arrse (as you do when you're a subby and invincible).

The lady was the CO's wife.

'56 extras Adjutant, sir? That'll do nicely.' :D

They were allocated using the following formula: 1 for every week in the year, and 4 for good luck. COs don't have to make sense. :D
 
#12
Within the Corps there is somebody who really is the font of all knowledge when it comes to the legalities of this sort of thing. No names obviously, but you might want to give the 2ic of 4(Mil Trg) Sqn at Blandford a ring.
Having been in one of his briefings on the subject I can honestly say I have not come across a more knowledgable (or entertaining) man (or woman) on the subject. Its his pet subject and is more than happy to spread the word.
 
#13
Got given 20 extras by the FofS once on exercise. I had been cleaning out the crap in the back of my rover one evening in a wood. Got given a crash move and ended up leaving my 321 on the forest floor. Ooops, although in my defence it was dark. The problem was brought to light by the FofS picking it up and returning it to me himself just as we arrived at the new location. Troopie thought 20 a bit harsh (and didn’t like the FofS, who was a twat) and let me off with it. Top bloke.
 
#14
The award of extra duties by anyone other than your OC or CO is illegal. Those to$$ers who think they are above the law and consider themselves judge, jury and executioner are not fit to hold any position of authority. My advice - next time you are awarded extras - tell him/her to stuff em where the sun don't shine - and don't forget to tell the CO that you were awarded an illegal punishment when you are on orders. Think it doesn't work? It does.
 
#15
Oracle said:
The award of extra duties by anyone other than your OC or CO is illegal. Those to$$ers who think they are above the law and consider themselves judge, jury and executioner are not fit to hold any position of authority. My advice - next time you are awarded extras - tell him/her to stuff em where the sun don't shine - and don't forget to tell the CO that you were awarded an illegal punishment when you are on orders. Think it doesn't work? It does.

So say young thrusting Cpl X, a team player who does his bit and so on is late for parade or does another out of character screw up should be put on a 252 or worse the incident ignored?

Think straight man, Extras are a good tool for troop discipline. Taking 2 and getting out of the Staffies sight provides closure. Done and dusted. Cpl X can then shrug it off and have a laugh in the bar knowing he has not just lost his potential "O" grade and a months wage.

Normally the only people who complain about extras are those Soldiers unable to self discipline themselves out of incidents or think they are above the queens regs.

Sure the extras stick can sometimes get smacked about a bit too much but they generally fit the crime and the awardee.
 
#16
Disco, You contradict yourself in your reply by saying that if a young thrusting Cpl could be charged for a minor transgression and lose his O grade ACR then extras are OK and then you say that the only people who normally complain about extras are those who are unable to discipline themselves. Make your mind up, they are either deserved or not. Your argument is irrelevant anyway - they are ILLEGAL and that means you cannot award extras out of hand. I am the OC of a unit and have recent cause to deal with a WO who decided that he was in a position to award extras to a number of my juniors for a minor offence; an offence that did not warrant 252 action (as most minor offences), castigation and education are alternative courses of action. He is now a wiser man and realises that there are alternatives to 'old ways'.

We used to throw females out of the Army for becoming pregnant even when it was deemed illegal by the European Court of Human Rights - and look what that cost the British taxpayer. Would you like to be the first soldier to be Court Martialled for awarding an illegal punishment? Awarding extra duties is ILLEGAL and nothing that you say can change that FACT.
 
#17
Hmm ok granted I wasnt too clear. Im trying to refer to the use of extras as a way of keeping soldiers on the straight and narrow without having to go through the 252 route for every offence. Yes you are right ill-disciplined soldiers would probably end up on 252 anyway. But isnt it sometimes too easy to keep a "bad" soldier "bad" by constant 252 for some lesser transgressions?

I accept that in the eyes of Mil law they are illegal to give out, but we may be confused over word "extra" rather than the punishement. In my career extras have been everything from fast ball jiffs for the Sqn to work tasks over the weekend, driving/waitering on at social functions etc rather than extra guards. Are we talking about the same methods you use now? If this is not the case I would be interested in knowing other ways of enforcing discipline at Troop level.
 
#18
Now you are starting to use your brain. I have also been a Troop Comd and it can be difficult to quantify exactly how you would deal with an individual that has transgressed without recourse to 252 action. It all depends on the individual, the circumstances and what tasks require completion at that time. In these days of the constant threat of litigation, we all (from LCpl up) must be aware that our actions are (and must be) accountable.
 
#19
Boys, boys - stop squabbling. Extras are illegal. End of chat. Fact.

However, have a look in your Standing Orders to see if there is a tiny little paragraph that says that if the lad's kit is in rag they can receive up to an hour Extra Drill Instruction.

Not that I know much about it.

(Read this in the Telegraph tomorrow!!!!!)
 
#20
Dale The Snail said:
Boys, boys - stop squabbling. Extras are illegal. End of chat. Fact.

However, have a look in your Standing Orders to see if there is a tiny little paragraph that says that if the lad's kit is in rag they can receive up to an hour Extra Drill Instruction.

Not that I know much about it.

(Read this in the Telegraph tomorrow!!!!!)

In the Army drill Manual it cleary states

Drill is not to be used as a punishement.

hehe
 

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