Express: "‘National Disgrace!’ Britons Furious As Royal Navy Declared Smaller Than Italy's - Poll"

soleil

War Hero
"Britons have expressed deep concern about the shrinking size of the Royal Navy amid shocking news it is now even smaller than Italy's.

In an exclusive Express.co.uk poll, up to 90 percent of those surveyed revealed they were worried about the UK military’s defence following news British Royal Navy’s number of frigates and destroyers in service has fallen to just 15. The total number who said this was a major concern to them was 3,550. This is compared to 10 percent who were not worried about reduction in the size of the Navy, amounting to 376 people.

Data was collected on Monday February 17 from 1.38pm to 7.38pm and saw 3,949 people take part.

Comments widely reflected the result of the poll.

One commenter, referring to Boris Johnson’s quest to finish the HS2 rail project, said: “Never mind about HS2 Boris, get our navy up and running to defend our coasts.

A second said: “This is a failure of duty by past Governments going back decades, we can only hope Boris reverses this failure of duty.”

A third said: “And to think we were once a nation with one of the biggest and best ships in the world.”

A fourth comment read: “Don’t worry, the money will be invested in high-speed trains and bridges, and these will keep us safe.”

Another said: “No two words about it, it’s a national disgrace, and those responsible for it should be taken to task, both mod and ministers and PMs in charge at the time.

“They should start making their excuses now, and then apologise to the nation!”

Another added: “At least any naval war with anyone will be a short one!”

It comes as the end of this year will see the Royal Navy declared smaller than Italy’s in a shocking move that breaks the Government’s long standing promise to always maintain a minimum of 19 frigates.

A former admiral called the admission “a national embarrassment and disgrace”.

He warned the mistake will relegate Britain to a second division of the world’s navies.

In comparison, France has 22 frigates and destroyers and Italy has 17.

The new Type 31 frigates won’t come into service until May 2027, four years late.

Ministry of Defence (MoD) Permanent Secretary Stephen Lovegrove let the delay slip in a letter to the Commons Public Accounts Committee last month.

At the same time, the ageing generation of Type 23 frigates are still to be paid off from 2023.

This will leave a major shortfall in the British Navy’s vessels.

The number of frigates is set to fall from 13 to nine by 2027, with the number of Type 45 destroyers remaining at six.

Former First Sea Lord Admiral Lord West dubbed the shortfall “a national embarrassment and disgrace”.

The peer had been repeatedly assured by defence ministers that the Type 31s would be delivered on time.

Lord West told The Sun: “Just 15 major service ships will put us into the second tier of the world’s navies.

“Fifteen surface ships means only five on task, as a third will be in maintenance and a third will be training.

“For a great nation like ours, just five frigates on task is a national embarrassment and disgrace.”"


 

Mölders 1

Clanker
Can't say that l'm surprised.
It must be said though that the R.N. sacrificed numerous other Warships to safeguard their 2 new Carriers..
 

Union Jack

Clanker
"Britons have expressed deep concern about the shrinking size of the Royal Navy amid shocking news it is now even smaller than Italy's.

In an exclusive Express.co.uk poll, up to 90 percent of those surveyed revealed they were worried about the UK military’s defence following news British Royal Navy’s number of frigates and destroyers in service has fallen to just 15. The total number who said this was a major concern to them was 3,550. This is compared to 10 percent who were not worried about reduction in the size of the Navy, amounting to 376 people.

Data was collected on Monday February 17 from 1.38pm to 7.38pm and saw 3,949 people take part.

Comments widely reflected the result of the poll.

One commenter, referring to Boris Johnson’s quest to finish the HS2 rail project, said: “Never mind about HS2 Boris, get our navy up and running to defend our coasts.

A second said: “This is a failure of duty by past Governments going back decades, we can only hope Boris reverses this failure of duty.”

A third said: “And to think we were once a nation with one of the biggest and best ships in the world.”

A fourth comment read: “Don’t worry, the money will be invested in high-speed trains and bridges, and these will keep us safe.”

Another said: “No two words about it, it’s a national disgrace, and those responsible for it should be taken to task, both mod and ministers and PMs in charge at the time.

“They should start making their excuses now, and then apologise to the nation!”

Another added: “At least any naval war with anyone will be a short one!”

It comes as the end of this year will see the Royal Navy declared smaller than Italy’s in a shocking move that breaks the Government’s long standing promise to always maintain a minimum of 19 frigates.

A former admiral called the admission “a national embarrassment and disgrace”.

He warned the mistake will relegate Britain to a second division of the world’s navies.

In comparison, France has 22 frigates and destroyers and Italy has 17.

The new Type 31 frigates won’t come into service until May 2027, four years late.

Ministry of Defence (MoD) Permanent Secretary Stephen Lovegrove let the delay slip in a letter to the Commons Public Accounts Committee last month.

At the same time, the ageing generation of Type 23 frigates are still to be paid off from 2023.

This will leave a major shortfall in the British Navy’s vessels.

The number of frigates is set to fall from 13 to nine by 2027, with the number of Type 45 destroyers remaining at six.

Former First Sea Lord Admiral Lord West dubbed the shortfall “a national embarrassment and disgrace”.

The peer had been repeatedly assured by defence ministers that the Type 31s would be delivered on time.

Lord West told The Sun: “Just 15 major service ships will put us into the second tier of the world’s navies.

“Fifteen surface ships means only five on task, as a third will be in maintenance and a third will be training.

“For a great nation like ours, just five frigates on task is a national embarrassment and disgrace.”"


I can't help reflecting that we are most fortunate that one of the best things Gordon Brown did was to ennoble Alan West in 2007, since he has certainly done his best, both in the Lords and the media, to keep the Royal Navy's best interests in the public eye, dare I say it, more frequently and more prominently than many of his successors as First Sea Lord.

Jack
 

Puss

Swinger
I can't help reflecting that we are most fortunate that one of the best things Gordon Brown did was to ennoble Alan West in 2007, since he has certainly done his best, both in the Lords and the media, to keep the Royal Navy's best interests in the public eye, dare I say it, more frequently and more prominently than many of his successors as First Sea Lord.

Jack
I can't help reflecting that The Right Honourable The Lord West of Spithead slashed RN hull numbers during his tenure as 1SL, including six frigates and destroyers.
 
“Fifteen surface ships means only five on task, as a third will be in maintenance and a third will be training.

“For a great nation like ours, just five frigates on task is a national embarrassment and disgrace.”"


OK, this is where I am fully prepared to admit my ignorance, I am not a sailor and my maritime experience doesn't extend beyond getting the Heysham ferry, but only one third of the ships are available for duty at any one time?

Is that an acceptable level of performance? Is there any other organisation where only a third of plant and equipment is available for actual use at any one time?

I get it, I get it, training and maintenance are important, of course they are, very important, but at any one time 66 percent of the hugely expensive stuff they are given to do their jobs on is laid up for some reason?

Would a car factory, or an airline or even a commercial shipping fleet experience that sort of shortfall due to training and maintenance? What do they do differently and maybe they could explain how they do it to the Senior Service.
 
Is that an acceptable level of performance? Is there any other organisation where only a third of plant and equipment is available for actual use at any one time?
Its not strictly whats available for use if you've got to go somewhere right now - that's probably nearer 5 out of 6 and the lower figure of 1 in 3 is more about people than equipment.

Youre average engineering plant - probably has 90% availability** and is used 8 til 4 Monday to Friday and pretty much everyone buggers off home - Your RN frigate is out their 24/7 - you cant keep people out there 300 days a year even if the ships can do so

**But unlike ships and aircraft - that wont include the scheduled rather more extensive maintenance periods
 
Are they including HMS Winchester in the total?
 

Mrs Slocombe

Old-Salt
Not that I'd disagree with West, but to some extent it's the quality that counts rather than the quantity.
Our Type 45s are the dog's bollox.
 
"Britons have expressed deep concern about the shrinking size of the Royal Navy amid shocking news it is now even smaller than Italy's.
So the electorate will sign up for fewer hospitals, schools and road maintenance programmes in order to increase the Defence Budget: I think not.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
So the electorate will sign up for fewer hospitals, schools and road maintenance programmes in order to increase the Defence Budget: I think not.
If Boris struck the right notes in speeches and explained why it was necessary, I’m sure they would.

There’s a Brexit mood within the country that would back that - standing on our own two feet, and all that.

Cameron must be spitting.
 

bob231

War Hero
“Fifteen surface ships means only five on task, as a third will be in maintenance and a third will be training.

“For a great nation like ours, just five frigates on task is a national embarrassment and disgrace.”"


OK, this is where I am fully prepared to admit my ignorance, I am not a sailor and my maritime experience doesn't extend beyond getting the Heysham ferry, but only one third of the ships are available for duty at any one time?

Is that an acceptable level of performance? Is there any other organisation where only a third of plant and equipment is available for actual use at any one time?

I get it, I get it, training and maintenance are important, of course they are, very important, but at any one time 66 percent of the hugely expensive stuff they are given to do their jobs on is laid up for some reason?

Would a car factory, or an airline or even a commercial shipping fleet experience that sort of shortfall due to training and maintenance? What do they do differently and maybe they could explain how they do it to the Senior Service.
This is rather disingenuous: that "one third, one third, one third" is a planner's rule of thumb for indefinite sustainability (although the V-Boats work one-in-four to ensure one of them is always on task). In this ideal scheme you'd normally have more than a third on task, as ships would rotate in to the on-task units before others rotated out.

In that "third, third, third", only a very small proportion would be completely unavailable for ops: the plan is to ensure that deep refits and routine maintenance have sufficient time to ensure they're done properly and ships don't have to bear major defects for extended periods, and that ships going to operational theatres are genuinely properly capable.

In reality, the frigate fleet is being run very hot to maintain overseas commitments while a comprehensive refit to the Type 45 is conducted - slowly, thanks to the Treasury - to make them less likely to spend months at a time parked up in Portsmouth. A ship in Fleet Time can expect to spend six-eight months at sea until it goes into refit, potentially longer if global events dictate, which is very hard on crew, plant and hull.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
This is rather disingenuous: that "one third, one third, one third" is a planner's rule of thumb for indefinite sustainability (although the V-Boats work one-in-four to ensure one of them is always on task). In this ideal scheme you'd normally have more than a third on task, as ships would rotate in to the on-task units before others rotated out.

In that "third, third, third", only a very small proportion would be completely unavailable for ops: the plan is to ensure that deep refits and routine maintenance have sufficient time to ensure they're done properly and ships don't have to bear major defects for extended periods, and that ships going to operational theatres are genuinely properly capable.

In reality, the frigate fleet is being run very hot to maintain overseas commitments while a comprehensive refit to the Type 45 is conducted - slowly, thanks to the Treasury - to make them less likely to spend months at a time parked up in Portsmouth. A ship in Fleet Time can expect to spend six-eight months at sea until it goes into refit, potentially longer if global events dictate, which is very hard on crew, plant and hull.
A point lost on the public and one which the MOD and Treasury have conveniently hidden behind for years. Numbers available limp into single figures.

Post-Falklands, we saw a need for 40 destroyers and frigates. That meant 60 actual hulls.

Over time, that got re-written. It became 40 ships in total - which meant 30-ish for tasking. We were 10 short.

Then we cut to 35 ships, with the justification that it was ‘nearly 40’ but money was tight. That gave 20 ships for tasking, in reality. The RN’s operational fleet was halved, in plain sight, and no-one challenged it. Not anyone in uniform, nor any mainstream defence journalist.

For the record, the Tories did it and it was a disgrace.

(But fùck me, we’d give our right arm for even a 35-hull fleet these days...)

The current 13-hull figure is an arbitrary one. It’s based on replacing what we’d cut to, not what we need for tasking. It’s way below what we need.

The reality, as many have noted, is it’s not just ships but manning. That needs money. It also needs a savage readjustment within the RN to how it treats people.
 

Flight

LE
Book Reviewer
No doubt some Ministry of Demoralisation cuck will be along to spin us some new Emperor's clothes...

Nice to see the press taking an interest. Even the magic Grandad mentioned RN surface fleet numbers in the 2017 debates.
 
Outraged public: "Its a disgrace", "disgusting" "Shameful" "Something must be done"

The Government: "Hey, outraged public, do you want pay more taxes for a bigger navy?"

Outraged public: Total silence
 

Flight

LE
Book Reviewer
Outraged public: Total silence
Merely an assumption on your part I assume.

They could merely use the 80% of tarif revenues which has either reverted to us from the EU or will next year. Using the revenue from our seabourne trade to fund the RN, which protects it, makes a lot of sense.

The figures for such might surprise you...
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
No doubt some Ministry of Demoralisation cuck will be along to spin us some new Emperor's clothes...

Nice to see the press taking an interest. Even the magic Grandad mentioned RN surface fleet numbers in the 2017 debates.
The 'The newer ships are 'X' times more capable' line has been spun for years, conveniently ignoring that they can only be 'X' more capable in the water immediately around them.
 
IF we had no ships and were asked to design the navy from scratch, would its composition look like the present navy ? Said it many times, you reduce the service, you reduce the commitments, else you risk disaster..... Always answered with the usual suspects shouting about treaties, responsibilities and such like, with a pointless call for more resources where the answer is already known in advance(no).
 

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