Evacuation operations

chrisg46

LE
Book Reviewer
#1
Having read this story, (BBC News - Libya protests: Evacuation plans of foreign governments) i was wondering, when sending in aircraft and/or ships to evacuate civilians from warzones, do we/they get permission from the host country or is it a case of "we are coming in anyway"?
After all, Quadaffi would be a bit nervous about all these foreign military planes flying over his airspace, and ships off his coast it must bring back some bad memories!

Is there any scope for a foreign power do like we did in Sierra Leone and land troops at an airfield or port while civvies are taken out?
I am not advocating such a course of action, just curious!
 
#2
At its most extreme the NEO doctrine says we could enter under Article 51 of the UN Charter - i.e., the "inherent right to self defence" which could arguably be extended to all citizens, wherever they are. However, most NEOs would be done under a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) or a Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA). Clearly the situation is key - is the environment permissive, semi-permissive or non-permissive?

Who says doctrine isn't exciting?
 
#3
"Is there any scope for a foreign power do like we did in Sierra Leone and land troops at an airfield or port while civvies are taken out?
I am not advocating such a course of action, just curious! "

We could, but it would be the worst case scenario as the images of foreign troops on Libyan soil would be a bit of a disaster. We really really really don't want to have to put foreign boots on the ground unless we have to.

The civilian evacuations seem to be working okay right now, getting the military involved must be a last resort.
 
#4
What's the normal Frech response ? If I remember rightly they jumped in and secured an airport, warned the locals to stay away and not interfere then bombed the local Airbase when attacked.....
 
#5
What's the normal French response ? If I remember rightly they jumped in and secured an airport, warned the locals to stay away and not interfere then bombed the local Airbase when attacked.....
Oh no! Do you not realise that you have just broken the First ARSSE Convention?
 
#7
One thing you can say for the French, the phrase " political correctness" just doesn't seem to translate. They tend to do what they ****ing want without worrying too much what anyone thinks.
 

Grumblegrunt

LE
Book Reviewer
#8
send in the italians I reckon cos when they get it wrong the germans will get in there and sort it out all the way to the egyptian border :)

bloke on the telly, one of the oil workers asking for a c130 to go in and pick them up. cant see the mod doing that, costs money you know!
 
#9
We probably pay between 50%- 65% of our earnings in direct and indirect taxes to a government that spends money like it's going out of fashion on shite, and yet we, as a nation, can't even manage to get our citizens out of Libya....

But I bet that there's already a queue of Lybians at the UK Border to claim asylum though

****ing shambles
 
#10
Just heard some Jock on radio,saying ''The British response is not enough''.He went there in the first place.Let his company or the Scottish Government get him out!
 
#11
D

Deleted 20555

Guest
#12
Lets put it this way - could the British forces do the same? Budget is slightly higher but somehow the capability is somewhat less - How is that exactly? Cause I don't see the French fleet having carriers without planes etc etc etc.
 

Grumblegrunt

LE
Book Reviewer
#13
when they pulled out of mainstream nato they got into the habit of making sure they could go it alone with their own nucs and capacity to hold the germans off for more than 10 minutes, not having huge standing tank armies on the rhine helped a lot I reckon. we have become too reliant on the US after we handed the oceans over and let them look after our key air defenses

plus we ran away from our colonies whereas the french either tried to take them back or at least maintained a civil and military presence post revolution.

I think blair like the idea of being more frog like hense SL and FYR but he screwed it up with iraq. cameron doesnt understand power projection hence the silly cuts.
 
#14
Quote ["Just heard some Jock on radio,saying ''The British response is not enough''.He went there in the first place.Let his company or the Scottish Government get him out! "]

Don't forget a lot of British expat workers are paying your wages; better a taxpayer gets government support than a bloody immigrant!


Regards, a Jock expat taxpaying (40%) worker!
 
#15
I have a few points to raise with the evacuation in general.....

1. Shouldn't British citizens maybe think long and hard before they go to work in an unstable country in a volatile area of the world run by a lunatic dictator?

2. Why was there no EU response, with the French/Germans perhaps offering to help GB out? Isn't this why we have the EU foreign ministry? If memory serves when Britain intervened in Sierra Leone we evacuated ALL EU nationals, not just the British.

3. Should HMG be expected to go to anywhere in the world to rescue anyone at anytime?

4. Do expatriates, though British by birth and doubtless with passports, pay UK tax?
 
#16
Hush everyone - a man with experience of handling the evacuation of personnel from crumbling faraway countries has spoken thus...


" Bob Crow, general secretary of the Rail Maritime and Transport union, which represents oil workers, accused the Government of "failing" UK citizens at a time of crisis.

"The response of the Government in terms of organising transport to get our people home has been a disgrace that has left lives in danger while other foreign nationals were back on home soil in their thousands before a single plane had even left the UK," he said.

"If planes can be scrambled to fly David Cameron around the Middle East and North Africa on press stunts, why can't the same be done for our people caught in the middle of a civil war?"

Libya protests: live - Telegraph

Thanks for your contribution Bob - why not have another strike about it ?
 
#17
See my answers below;


I have a couple of points to raise with the evacuation in general.....

1. Shouldn't British citizens maybe think long and hard before they go to work in an unstable country in a volatile area of the world run by a lunatic dictator?

Lots of us do, but until recently Libya was fairly stable; for many of us working overseas is better than being unemployed.

2. Why was there no EU response, with the French/Germans perhaps offering to help GB out? Isn't this why we have the EU foreign ministry? If memory serves when Britain intervened in Sierra Leone we evacuated ALL EU nationals, not just the British.
Pass?

3. Should HMG be expected to go to anywhere in the world to rescue anyone at anytime?
IMHO NO, but should be prepared to teach these Johnny Foreigners that we mean what is printed in our passports about letting the Bearer to "pass freely without hindrance", if they f*ck with british citizens, we should send a gunboat! Them fuzzywuzzies also don't like cold steel according to corporal Jones

4. Do expatriates, though British by birth and doubtless with passports, pay UK tax?

If they have house/family/car/ doctor/dentist/bank accounts, etc. in the UK they should be paying, I bloody well am! The rules have been tightened considerably in the last couple of years!
 
#18
France has already evacuated 550 French and EU nationals from Libya and further flights are planned.

Ever since France has started carrying out evacuation operations around the world, the rule has always been to evacuate not just French citizen but also EU and all other nations that made a request to the FRA Gvt.

For example, in 1996, FRA forces evacuated many Britons from Brazzaville. In 2002 it evacuated US students from the Baptist School in Bouake in Ivory Coast, deep into the rebel held area.

In June 2003, other example, FRA forces evacuated 86 US citizen from war-torn Liberia just as GWB and his clique was rabbiting on about the uselessness of the French armed forces. Local US ambassador had to say thank you through clenched teeth.

Priceless.

In Liberia, at least 535 nationals originating from 37 differents countries were evacuated by French forces. Of those 535 evacuees, only 18 were French.

Same thing again in 2004 in Abidjan when white people were targeted by Gbagbo's supporters.

As for the comments on Kolwezi, here is the list of the Legionnaires KIA and WIA during this Op; Legionnaires of French origin are very much in evidence and account for 75% of the KIA and at leat 50% of the WIA:

KIA
Sergent-chef DANIEL
Caporal ARNOLD
Légionnaire CLEMENT
Caporal HARTE
Caporal-chef ALLIOUI
WIA

Sgt CABROL 2° Cie
C/C SENEKOVIC 2° Cie
Cpl OVACICK 2° Cie
Lég. SEEGER 2° Cie
Cpl PRUDENCE 4° Cie
Lég. SORAL 1° Cie
Lég. MARCO 1° Cie
Lég. GILBERT CCS
Cpl PAIN 1° Cie
Lég. RODRIGUEZ 3° Cie
Cpl DALLET 2° Cie
Lég. SVOBODA 3° Cie
Lég. FORESTIER 3° Cie
Cpl COURSON 3° Cie
Lt RAYMOND 2° Cie
Lég. DEMONT CAE
Cpl MUNOZ CAE
Lég. JAKOVIC 4° Cie
Lég. BECKER CAE
Cpl BAREDA 2° Cie
 
#19
I have a few points to raise with the evacuation in general.....

1. Shouldn't British citizens maybe think long and hard before they go to work in an unstable country in a volatile area of the world run by a lunatic dictator?

2. Why was there no EU response, with the French/Germans perhaps offering to help GB out? Isn't this why we have the EU foreign ministry? If memory serves when Britain intervened in Sierra Leone we evacuated ALL EU nationals, not just the British.

3. Should HMG be expected to go to anywhere in the world to rescue anyone at anytime?

4. Do expatriates, though British by birth and doubtless with passports, pay UK tax?

It could be something to do with that utter waste of space, and New Labour apparatchik and appointment Baroness Ashton.
 
#20
I thought I saw something on the Torygraph or Times website saying that she'd issued a stern warning to the Libyan government about behaving themselves, but must confess that the appearance of the words 'Baroness Ashton' in the headline had the usual effect of ensuring that I didn't click on the story (on the grounds that if I want to read a statement that includes long words but says exactly nothing, I'll dig out one of my copies of Yes, Prime Minister, since that's far better written).
 

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