Eurofighter crash - Italy

#41
I thought these new seats allowed the pilot to 'bang out' at zero feet and still live. Every days a lesson.
The 'zero-zero' capability in most modern seats guarantees aircrew of defined weight and dimensions a safe ejection from zero speed and zero altitude (ie standing still on the ground) as long as the aircraft is wings level. If an aircraft is descending rapidly, rolling or pitching, or if the pilot is a bit of a big lad, then the zero-zero capability is gradually eroded.

For instance, Flt Lt Simon Burgess (a Tornado GR1 PoW in GW1) was killed in 1996 when his Hawk T1 suffered a control linkage failure and rolled rapidly right on take off from RAF Valley. Although he initiated ejection almost immediately, the rapid rate of roll resulted him being ejected almost horizontally. As a result, the seat separation and parachute deployment sequence had not had time to complete and he was killed when he hit the ground still in his seat.

Loops are a basic component of Air Combat Manoeuvering even today. Conducted correctly using appropriate entry gates for speed and altitude, they are perfectly safe. Unfortunately, people are fallible and can screw those up, pull too much g, or even have an unidentified medical condition making them more susceptible to G-Loc.

We may never know for sure.

RIP.

Regards,
MM
 
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#42
Would a loop in afterburner be normal, or might that have been a late attempt at recovery?

The third Eurofighter crash in a month. Spain has now lost a pilot and plane near Los Llanos during a National Day fly past. This after a Saudi loss while on ops, and the Italian loss during an airshow.

Interview with some Spanish witnesses appears to indicate that during a low level ‘break’ by four of them one went into a vertical loop and it was this one that crashed.
 
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#43
I thought these new seats allowed the pilot to 'bang out' at zero feet and still live. Every days a lesson.
That's correct, but only if the jet is not headed towards terra very firma at a high rate of knots. Late 80s one of the Red Arrows overcooked things a bit on take off* and banged out at ground level. Looked quite good, the seat did exactly what it says on the box and our steely eyed killer walked away with a few bruises plus a bit of MDC splatter.
* The pilot in question had a habit of retracting the flaps and gear just as soon as he got airborne, plus for technical reasons the Arrows fly their displays with the airbrakes out a lot of the time. All well and good but on the Hawk the airbrake is on the underside of the fuselage. So a combination of the above plus opening the brakes a bit too soon was never going to end well. And it didn't. Minor digression, but it indicates what bang seats can do. Somewhere in the depths of U-Tube there is a USAF film on banging out and why it doesn't always end well, almost invariably because the seat is used outside of its limits.
 
#44
That's correct, but only if the jet is not headed towards terra very firma at a high rate of knots. Late 80s one of the Red Arrows overcooked things a bit on take off* and banged out at ground level. Looked quite good, the seat did exactly what it says on the box and our steely eyed killer walked away with a few bruises plus a bit of MDC splatter.
* The pilot in question had a habit of retracting the flaps and gear just as soon as he got airborne, plus for technical reasons the Arrows fly their displays with the airbrakes out a lot of the time. All well and good but on the Hawk the airbrake is on the underside of the fuselage. So a combination of the above plus opening the brakes a bit too soon was never going to end well. And it didn't. Minor digression, but it indicates what bang seats can do. Somewhere in the depths of U-Tube there is a USAF film on banging out and why it doesn't always end well, almost invariably because the seat is used outside of its limits.

Wasn't that the one filmed by thw BBC with Phillip Schofield in one of thw back seats for a Saturday morning tv show.
IIRC it was shortly after another pilot had left his jet just before it hit a house just up the road from Scampton.
 
#45
Wasn't that the one filmed by thw BBC with Phillip Schofield in one of thw back seats for a Saturday morning tv show.
IIRC it was shortly after another pilot had left his jet just before it hit a house just up the road from Scampton.
That happened just after my posting to Scampton, the almost amusing thing about it was that a wing buried itself in a young boys bedroom, fortunately he wasn't there at the time. Apparently he was something of a Red Arrows fan and always wanted a souvenir of the Reds. Got one, personal delivery.
 
#48
Would a loop in afterburner be normal, or might that have been a late attempt at recovery?

The third Eurofighter crash in a month. Spain has now lost a pilot and plane near Los Llanos during a National Day fly past. This after a Saudi loss while on ops, and the Italian loss during an airshow.

Interview with some Spanish witnesses appears to indicate that during a low level ‘break’ by four of them one went into a vertical loop and it was this one that crashed.
I can only compare a loop (at ludicrous altitude) in a Chipmunk (5000 ft) and T1a Hawk, (16000 ft ), but I was taught to use full power when the nose was above the horizon (attitude)when you pulled out. I guess in a Typhoon that means afterburners.

If I remember it’s Full power entry, maintain a 4g pull, power was off (Chipmunk) or pulled back from 100% to 65-75% (Hawk...I don’t remember which) as we went down hill, then full power recovery as the nose (attitude) came above the horizon.

If you banjaxed the Angle of attack (AoA) - over pulled, then your attitude would be right, with nose above the horizon, you’d apply as much power as you could and still be heading earthward since you’ve exceeded the AoA for the wings to create (or maintain) lift. That is the making of a high speed stall.

What I find slightly irritating is that the display aircraft (especially Russian) are stripped back to save weight, have display fuel, adapted software so can do amazing manoeuvres as a result... try that in a Squadron aircraft (at low level).

As @Magic_Mushroom said, a loop (aerobatics in general) is a safe necessary and enjoyable
 
#49
#51
I can only compare a loop (at ludicrous altitude) in a Chipmunk (5000 ft) and T1a Hawk, (16000 ft ), but I was taught to use full power when the nose was above the horizon (attitude)when you pulled out. I guess in a Typhoon that means afterburners.
Unfortunately the Italian Eurofighter’s nose may not have been above the horizon but he was in afterburner when he contact the water.

Looped various aircraft Chippie, Citabria, Stearman, Pitt’s and Christianson Eagle, though never a jet, all with very different radii and responsiveness.
 

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