Eurofighter crash - Italy

#21
Point to note: there are very few instances in combat where a loop would be being performed that close to the ground. For that matter, in the modern BVR environment there are fewer and fewer instances where they're performed at altitude.

Such manoeuvres are crowd-pleasers. Unfortunately, crowds tend to be on the ground.

I won't pass comment on a dead man with considerably more flying skills than me. That's for an enquiry to do (or not) but suffice to say that doing such things so close to the ground leaves very little margin for error.
 

Auld-Yin

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#23
Wah shield up -
Loops are perfectly safe if the manoeuvre is started at sufficient height above the unforgiving earth .
Why ban anything that's deemed unsafe ? Smoking still kills more a year than 50 years worth of aviation related crashes
In the case of Shoreham the actual manoeuvre was not the issue.....it was all the other factors surrounding it......as is the case in most crashes .
And down -
Good job all those WW2 Biggles types were not restrained by Elf and Safety
Like Douglas Bader :D
 
#24
Many of the crashes at air displays seem to be while the aircraft is doing a loop de loop, so why

  1. Can't pilots do these safely?
  2. Are they not banned if they are so unsafe?
Loop (singular unless repeated as part of a sequence, then its loops) is not a dangerous manoeuvre when you’ve got altitude. Low level loop(s) are bloody dangerous since the ground and gravity always punishes the careless, unlucky or foolhardy. Which just about summed up my cack handed Aeros so I always added a few thousand feet insurance.

There’s a very good description at @19 mns about pulling out of a vertical path. Ok not a loop but clearly describes the balance of pulling not too hard or not too little to avoid that punishment.

 

Joshua Slocum

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#25
why can they not build in technology to recover the aircraft if the pilot passes out ?
surely a system could be built in to calculate the point at which to pull up, and then move the aircraft away to safety until the pilot recovers ?
 
#26
why can they not build in technology to recover the aircraft if the pilot passes out ?
surely a system could be built in to calculate the point at which to pull up, and then move the aircraft away to safety until the pilot recovers ?
I'd imagine the difficulty is in building a system that flawlessly overrides pilot inputs - c.f. the 1988 Paris Airshow A320 crash.

Air France Flight 296 - Wikipedia

Short version: pilot performs low speed pass with wheels down, flaps down. When he goes to increase power - computer says no, as it thinks he's landing. Aircraft augers in. I believe the tragic 1994 Mull of Kintyre crash may also have been the result of the FADEC software overriding pilot inputs.

Pilots, especially of high performance military aircraft need to be able to manage the aircraft without worrying that the computer is going to overrule them.
 
#27
why can they not build in technology to recover the aircraft if the pilot passes out ?
surely a system could be built in to calculate the point at which to pull up, and then move the aircraft away to safety until the pilot recovers ?
Imagine a mil pilot trying to win a dogfight pulling beyond the software writers design limits when the ‘puter says

 
#28
Many of the crashes at air displays seem to be while the aircraft is doing a loop de loop, so why

  1. Can't pilots do these safely?
  2. Are they not banned if they are so unsafe?
The loop is one of the easiest of aerobatic manouevres, however it would normally be done at such a height that cockups or problems don't represent a safety hazard. The ground or water for that matter is very unforgiving.
 
#29
Has anyone got an explanation/speculation as to why the driver didn't eject? Was he already brown bread, or did he flakey in the curve? Could that be a possibility?

MsG
Stretching my memory back a bit I seem to remember that the minimum eject height equals one tenth of the rate of descent. So I don't know what speed the jet would have been doing on the descending bit of the loop but even if he was going at only 200kts (slow) his minimum ejection height would have been 2000' MSD. Couple that with an built in reluctance to bang out as long as the jet can be saved and some pilots simply leave it too late. However the BoI will no doubt determine the cause of the problem and why no bang out.
Whatever the cause, still a tragic loss.
 
#30
just thinking back to my younger days when I used to sit at my desk in my room on my PC 80486 playing "Falcon" dreaming of being a pilot.

Nowadays, pilots don't have to leave their rooms to fly aeroplanes either.

Now that's what I call a Full circle!
 
#31
Stretching my memory back a bit I seem to remember that the minimum eject height equals one tenth of the rate of descent. So I don't know what speed the jet would have been doing on the descending bit of the loop but even if he was going at only 200kts (slow) his minimum ejection height would have been 2000' MSD. Couple that with an built in reluctance to bang out as long as the jet can be saved and some pilots simply leave it too late. However the BoI will no doubt determine the cause of the problem and why no bang out.
Whatever the cause, still a tragic loss.
I thought these new seats allowed the pilot to 'bang out' at zero feet and still live. Every days a lesson.
 
#32
The seat has to be initiated first, so the jockey has to, at least, pull the handle and get the canopy blown off, to get the seat charge initiated, or he gets ejected through the perspex, with the seat's own canopy breakers breaking it open or the perspex being blown apart by a wired-in charge. Modern seats will save a pilot at zero-zero and even from being upside down. See the Russian K36 seats as an example.
 
#34
The F35b seat automatically bangs you out if the lift fan fails.
 
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Auld-Yin

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#35
The F35b seat automatically bangs you outif the lift fan fails.
Pilot will need to ensure no dangly bits are hanging around when all of a sudden he unexpectedly finds himself leaving the aircraft at a rapid rate of knots!
 
#36
Pilot will need to ensure no dangly bits are hanging around when all of a sudden he unexpectedly finds himself leaving the aircraft at a rapid rate of knots!
If the lift fan fails your fucked either way.
 
#38
I thought these new seats allowed the pilot to 'bang out' at zero feet and still live. Every days a lesson.
Zero/zero doesn't guarantee getting out if sink rates are above 80' ps.
 

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