EU Constitution - here we go again.

#1
Why oh why do these moron politicians think they can keep pushing until they get an answer they like. There is no way in hell the UK will approve this - unless of course as Mandy is saying we wouldn't need to vote on it. Democracy my arrse.

Straight after the signing, Germany's leader nearly got left behind.

As the other 26 leaders waited on the bus that was to take them to the Brandenburg gate, Mrs Merkel had to push her way through the crowd, waving slightly anxiously, trying to catch up.

But this in no way works as a metaphor. Politically speaking Mrs Merkel is behind the wheel, driving at breakneck speed. The Germans want a new treaty to renew the political shape of Europe and "renew its political basis".

She warned it would be a "historic failure" if the process was not brought to a successful conclusion. She said that those who hoped there would be a constitutional treaty by now "will be disappointed".

Disagreement to overcome

Perhaps that was intended as no more than a statement of fact but it also points towards the one concession that has been made in private by fans of the constitution: the name itself will be dropped.
Oh the name will be dropped - well thats alright then :pissedoff:

Edited to add this link.
 
#2
Another bit of spin from Mandy and others is that while 2 countries blocked it, another 20 passed it.

As so often with Euro-spin, this is a specious argument - they all agreed beforehand that a unanimous vote counted. Otherwise they would all regard it as a 'non'.
 

Alsacien

MIA
Moderator
#3
I looked through the constitution and failed to find anything seriously controversial in it. Pretty boring actually.
The whole thing has just been badly presented, and should be dropped, but a lot of good ideas and work is contained therein, which should be re-used.

However, the treaty of Rome in 1957 (which our current MO is based on) considered only 6 countries - now we have 27 and we need a new operating structure.

It is not possible to consider 27 opinions on all issues.
 
#4
Rant On:

What really gets my goat all of a quiver is that they continue to ask the same question.

Surely the lack of a yes vote from two of the EU's FOUNDER members should have left this issue dead in the water?

They simply will not let this lie, as there are politicians in that bloated talking shop who have wet dreams about a United States of Europe.

At least the MEP's are voted for - it is the European Courts that really get my reels spinning. They have the ability to change my sovereign countries laws without ever having to face the public at voting time.

Finally they have the cheek to cash in and stick their snouts in the trough whilst failing signally to balance the books / be open to fair or public account when caught dipping the purse once too often.

The whole shooting match needs the Kibosh sharpish :frustrated:

Rant off.

Edited once due to spelling deficiency.
 
#5
Problem is as a member of one of those 27 countries I want my opinion taken into account and not have crappy legislation foisted on me without my permission. A few countries can get together and force through their own agenda and other countries have to suck it up, CAP anyone.

Problem is the pollies want to make a USE run by an unelected elite but this is not what a lot of us signed up for and they are trying to do it without our permission.

It was supposed to be all about freedom of movement and trade but now they want to make new laws binding on all states without my input. They want to decide in Germany how much tax we pay. They want to decide on my freedoms - again Germany trying to ban the swastika all over Europe. Two words, fcuk off!!

I'm actually pro Europe but this is taking things beyond what I want.
 
#7
The current setup is a gravy train with no accountability which wants to increasingly run my life and I say no.

The so called problem with the idea on all 27 nations having to vote is a red herring - if it simply gets on with regulating trade which is what it was formed for there is no need to vote on new legislation is there as its not there to regulate my life! No problem.
 

Alsacien

MIA
Moderator
#8
Ord_Sgt said:
The current setup is a gravy train with no accountability which wants to increasingly run my life and I say no.

The so called problem with the idea on all 27 nations having to vote is a red herring - if it simply gets on with regulating trade which is what it was formed for there is no need to vote on new legislation is there as its not there to regulate my life! No problem.
The EU has the highest accountability of any public service environment in any country in Europe - you have not bothered to look, thats ok, but dont state things which are not true.

Who says the EU exists solely to regulate trade? Again, you should do a bit of research yourself rather than rely on a Sun journo for reference.
You will find that you, your elected MP, your elected national government and your elected MEP, have all been regulating to meet changes in the world around us.

I dont think anyone is trying to do anything without the best intentions for the long term prosperity of European peoples, the problem is balancing 27 national opinions.
 
#9
Ord_Sgt said:
There is no way in hell the UK will approve this - unless of course as Mandy is saying we wouldn't need to vote on it.
I do believe that is exactly what he is saying.

Heedthebaw said:
Surely the lack of a yes vote from two of the EU's FOUNDER members should have left this issue dead in the water?
Didn't stop them when Ireland voted against EU expansion a few years ago. IIRC some unelected Euro politician publicly stated that Ireland's income from the EU would suffer if they didn't rerun the referendum and "deliver the right result". The referendum was rerun and, would you believe it, the outcome went from No to Yes.

Anybody else think the EU getting just a little bit scary?
 
#11
Alsacien said:
Ord_Sgt said:
The current setup is a gravy train with no accountability which wants to increasingly run my life and I say no.

The so called problem with the idea on all 27 nations having to vote is a red herring - if it simply gets on with regulating trade which is what it was formed for there is no need to vote on new legislation is there as its not there to regulate my life! No problem.
The EU has the highest accountability of any public service environment in any country in Europe - you have not bothered to look, thats ok, but dont state things which are not true.
Sorry but that is complete and utter bollox. Their accounts have not been signed off for 11 odd years and who is accountable for that? There are unelected appointees generating legislation who are accountable to no one. What about the constant stories of corruption and noses in the trough. Accountability my arrse - you need to look the work up in a dictionary.

Who says the EU exists solely to regulate trade? Again, you should do a bit of research yourself rather than rely on a Sun journo for reference.
Who asked me? It's my choice and this is exactly the problem you assume the EU has the right to legislate on my behalf - well it doesn't.


You will find that you, your elected MP, your elected national government and your elected MEP, have all been regulating to meet changes in the world around us.

I dont think anyone is trying to do anything without the best intentions for the long term prosperity of European peoples, the problem is balancing 27 national opinions.
Bollox again they are trying to do what is in their best interests.
 

Alsacien

MIA
Moderator
#12
Ord_Sgt said:
Alsacien said:
Ord_Sgt said:
The current setup is a gravy train with no accountability which wants to increasingly run my life and I say no.

The so called problem with the idea on all 27 nations having to vote is a red herring - if it simply gets on with regulating trade which is what it was formed for there is no need to vote on new legislation is there as its not there to regulate my life! No problem.
The EU has the highest accountability of any public service environment in any country in Europe - you have not bothered to look, thats ok, but dont state things which are not true.
Sorry but that is complete and utter bollox. Their accounts have not been signed off for 11 odd years and who is accountable for that? There are unelected appointees generating legislation who are accountable to no one. What about the constant stories of corruption and noses in the trough. Accountability my arrse - you need to look the work up in a dictionary.

Who says the EU exists solely to regulate trade? Again, you should do a bit of research yourself rather than rely on a Sun journo for reference.
Who asked me? It's my choice and this is exactly the problem you assume the EU has the right to legislate on my behalf - well it doesn't.


You will find that you, your elected MP, your elected national government and your elected MEP, have all been regulating to meet changes in the world around us.

I dont think anyone is trying to do anything without the best intentions for the long term prosperity of European peoples, the problem is balancing 27 national opinions.
Bollox again they are trying to do what is in their best interests.
Point 1 = European Court of Auditors reports - check them, the details and the reasons.

Point 2 = UK gov signed up to Maastrict and various other things, as your elected body, presumable they did this on your behalf? I may appear condescending, but only to the ill informed...

Point 3 = Naive? Far from it, I have the work with the stuff daily.
 
#13
Alsacien,

You are either stupid or deliberately lying.

We all know MEPs have no real power. The real power in Europe is the UNELECTED and unnacountable (in European Law) European Council.

Democracy my ARRSE.
 
#14
Yeah because theres loads of money missing. Again where is the accountability?

You are right Major did sign up to Maastricht but not on my behalf as he didn't ask me, which is exactly my point. Anyway my elected representative was then booted out. However the current charlatans are doing no different are they. And yes you are condescending, both to the informed and to those who disagree with you.

Your problem is you predicate your arguments on the fact that the EU in some way has a right to legislate and administrate increasingly on my behalf. Well no it hasn’t and this is the problem it continues to encroach on my everyday life where it is not wanted. We spent 50 years working to bring down the socialist centrally run state in the USSR so why the hell would we want to rebuild Europe in its image is beyond me.
 

Alsacien

MIA
Moderator
#15
Blokeonabike said:
Alsacien,

You are either stupid or deliberately lying.

We all know MEPs have no real power. The real power in Europe is the UNELECTED and unnacountable (in European Law) European Council.

Democracy my ARRSE.
I am neither.

I find myself in the odd position of defending something I am normally very critical of as I have to work with it. Sceptism is good, ill informed ranting is tiresome.

Power does not really exist in its full context anywhere. However you could say that the power to take a cheap flight, hire a car with a recognised license when you get there, retire in Spain and draw your pension, make cheap phone calls (soon mobile too), have cleaner air, have cleaner beaches, and, and, and... are all power in the hands of the people?
 
#16
DRAWING INSPIRATION from the cultural, religious and humanist nheritance of Europe, from which have developed the universal values of the inviolable and inalienable rights of the human person, freedom, democracy, equality and the rule of law,
BELIEVING that Europe, reunited after bitter experiences, intends to continue along the path of civilisation, progress and prosperity, for the good of all its inhabitants, including the weakest and most deprived; that it wishes to remain a continent open to culture, learning and social progress; and that it wishes to deepen the democratic and transparent nature of its public life, and to strive for peace, justice and solidarity throughout the world,
CONVINCED that, while remaining proud of their own national identities and history, the peoples of Europe are determined to transcend their former divisions and, united ever more closely, to forge a common destiny,
CONVINCED that, thus ‘United in diversity’, Europe offers them the best chance of pursuing, with due regard for the rights of each individual and in awareness of their responsibilities towards future generations and the Earth, the great venture which makes of it a special area of human hope,
DETERMINED to continue the work accomplished within the framework of the Treaties establishing the European Communities and the Treaty on European Union, by ensuring the continuity of the Community acquis,
GRATEFUL to the members of the European Convention for having prepared the draft of this
Constitution on behalf of the citizens and States of Europe,
The above preamble from the Constitution is fairly reasonable. Preferable to fruitless conflict really. Since, ala Digby-Jones styley, China wants our dinner and India our lunch, and the US whipped our cacks off a long time ago, we need our single market toot sweet just to stay in the global race. As a hard line anti-European to a reluctant advocate... it hurts to say it but it's our lifeline to economic well-being over the long-term.
 
#17
I tend to be pro Europe as I mentioned - I live here after all and travel around it a lot. However the politicians are running away attempting to make this all powerfull USE and we the people are not getting a say. The constitution was rejected and they are now trying to bring in in by the back door anyway. That is not accountability and not in our best interests and certainly not democratic. And that is what really really gets my back up.

The whole process shows that is is a self perpetuating gravy train with the interests of those involved at heart and not my interests, otherwise no would mean no wouldn't it?

Oh and while we may not know all the finer details that doesn't mean we are ill informed and wrong. If someone wants to make laws to influence my life he damn well better be accountable to me, the EU currently is not.
 

Alsacien

MIA
Moderator
#18
Ord_Sgt said:
You are right Major did sign up to Maastricht but not on my behalf as he didn't ask me, which is exactly my point. Anyway my elected representative was then booted out. However the current charlatans are doing no different are they.

But it is still your elected government acting on your behalf whether like it or not, no? If you want to be personally consulted then you should stand for election.

Your problem is you predicate your arguments on the fact that the EU in some way has a right to legislate and administrate increasingly on my behalf. Well no it hasn’t and this is the problem it continues to encroach on my everyday life where it is not wanted.

The right to legislate is contained in the treaties and agreements the UK gov has signed (including clauses, caveats, etc).

We spent 50 years working to bring down the socialist centrally run state in the USSR so why the hell would we want to rebuild Europe in its image is beyond me.
You compare the EU to soviet USSR? Maybe my reference to Sun journalism was off the mark, this is Sunday Sport territory....
 
#19
Alsacien said:
Ord_Sgt said:
You are right Major did sign up to Maastricht but not on my behalf as he didn't ask me, which is exactly my point. Anyway my elected representative was then booted out. However the current charlatans are doing no different are they.

But it is still your elected government acting on your behalf whether like it or not, no? If you want to be personally consulted then you should stand for election.

Your problem is you predicate your arguments on the fact that the EU in some way has a right to legislate and administrate increasingly on my behalf. Well no it hasn’t and this is the problem it continues to encroach on my everyday life where it is not wanted.

The right to legislate is contained in the treaties and agreements the UK gov has signed (including clauses, caveats, etc).

We spent 50 years working to bring down the socialist centrally run state in the USSR so why the hell would we want to rebuild Europe in its image is beyond me.
You compare the EU to soviet USSR? Maybe my reference to Sun journalism was off the mark, this is Sunday Sport territory....
Stop being crass you know exactly what I meant - a centrally run and governed state doesn't work which is exactly what the EU is trying to become.
 

Alsacien

MIA
Moderator
#20
Ord_Sgt said:
Alsacien said:
Ord_Sgt said:
You are right Major did sign up to Maastricht but not on my behalf as he didn't ask me, which is exactly my point. Anyway my elected representative was then booted out. However the current charlatans are doing no different are they.

But it is still your elected government acting on your behalf whether like it or not, no? If you want to be personally consulted then you should stand for election.

Your problem is you predicate your arguments on the fact that the EU in some way has a right to legislate and administrate increasingly on my behalf. Well no it hasn’t and this is the problem it continues to encroach on my everyday life where it is not wanted.

The right to legislate is contained in the treaties and agreements the UK gov has signed (including clauses, caveats, etc).

We spent 50 years working to bring down the socialist centrally run state in the USSR so why the hell would we want to rebuild Europe in its image is beyond me.
You compare the EU to soviet USSR? Maybe my reference to Sun journalism was off the mark, this is Sunday Sport territory....
Stop being crass you know exactly what I meant - a centrally run and governed state doesn't work which is exactly what the EU is trying to become.
I agree that a centrally run state will not work, efforts at centralisation have not worked or been popular with anyone.
But nobody is proposing or promoting this idea. Looking for common areas to develop can be viewed from different perspectives, but in a global economy competitiveness works to different rules and either you are a strong player or your long term prognosis is not good.
 

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