EU at it again.

Trans-sane

LE
Book Reviewer
#1
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article4664049.ece

Saw this in the paper version last night at dark o'clock. Didn't read the full article cos I was knackered but by god it gave me nightmares. I will be reading yesterday's again later today.

Yet another attack on our legal and goverment processes. After the abortion that is the treaty of Lisbon they now want to take habeus corpus off us as well!

Given the general outrage being generated this week we may need to charter a passenger ship- at least we will be saving money on the disel
 
#2
How can you possibly be surprised by this? If you stop thinking of Britain as a nation state and think of us as an economic region within the European State then these issues fall into place quite neatly. Why shouldn't they be able to extradite people to another region? We don't have to go through a long legal process to move criminals from one county to another do we? The law doesn't differ between Hertfordshire and Lancashire, so why should it differ between to regions of the EU? The process of normalisation between states is one that will take generations, not a few years. If you look at the inertia behind the European process, it is an inevitability that Lisbon will be enacted in some form or other at some time in the future. You've never had a choice in the past, why should you have one now?

The question I have asked here before is whether that huge amount of inertia is pushing us in the right direction. A fat and corrupt bureaucracy might have seemed like a good idea in the 50's when it all began but will the slowly grinding machine create a useful State out of the nations it has destroyed?
 
#3
The Human Rights act protects people against this, article 6, the right to a fair trial. Complete non story.
 
#5
Quite right Ord Sgt...

...apart from the fact that many EU states routinely ignore HR laws when it suits them. Even if it does apply (and what is to say it will not be modified in the future?), people will still face the following:

Door being kicked in at home at 0300hrs.
Dragged by armed police (from another country) to nearest UK airport (or have you forgotten that the EU can now send members of other member nations' police into other member states - in "exceptional circumstances"?)
Arrive in foriegn country and go stright to jail.
When in jail you can try and get legal help.
Eventually you can attempt to get a retrial.
Eventually you may get a trial.
Once found guilty (again) you go back to prison (places like Greece, Romania, Bulgaria, Spain, Italy and Portugal do not have an impartial court system).
Then you can appeal to the highest courts in the land.
Once they have rejected your claims you can approach the EU court of human rights.

They find in favour of you and you are released. Access to compensation = zero.
Time taken from being snatched from your UK address to being released from foriegn jail? 6-10 years.

Sweet.

But no, a complete non story.

BTW, a small little story: under EU law, all EU nations justice systems are treated as equals (when this is clearly not the case). To accuse another nation of having a corrupt judiciary and legal system is itself against EU rules, so criticism is forbidden. Real sweet.
 
#6
Fair one Dread but I'm not so cynical myself. :)
 
#7
Sorry, but I have seen what passes for legal systems and justice out here in central Europe.

By all means have a 'club' of states with broadly the same standards: France, UK, Ireland, Germany, the Scandanavian nations, Holland (funnily enough not Belgium), Austria, Czech Rep, Poland and Hungary.

In the other EU countries the legal system is either extremely corrupt (I include Belgium in this) or so underfunded or incompetent that access to justice is denied: I believe that waiting in jail for 3 years for your case even to reach the courts for an offence where the maximum penalty is 2 years inside to be justice denied. While the UK compensates people for time spent in jail if there has been a miscarriage of justice, most other EU nations do not, or the level is so low as to be meaningless - e.g. in Hungary you get 100quid per month you were unjustly detained.
 
#8
ericthellama said:
Nobody questions that you'll get a fair trial, you'll just get it somewhere else within the EU.
I do. The western part of the EU may be OK, but I have strong doubts about some of the newer members, and even stronger doubts about certain prospective members.
 
#9
Dread said:
Sorry, but I have seen what passes for legal systems and justice out here in central Europe.

By all means have a 'club' of states with broadly the same standards: France, UK, Ireland, Germany, the Scandanavian nations, Holland (funnily enough not Belgium), Austria, Czech Rep, Poland and Hungary.

In the other EU countries the legal system is either extremely corrupt (I include Belgium in this) or so underfunded or incompetent that access to justice is denied: I believe that waiting in jail for 3 years for your case even to reach the courts for an offence where the maximum penalty is 2 years inside to be justice denied. While the UK compensates people for time spent in jail if there has been a miscarriage of justice, most other EU nations do not, or the level is so low as to be meaningless - e.g. in Hungary you get 100quid per month you were unjustly detained.
I agree entirely having lived in Budapest, Bratislava and Prague, but you aren't going to be whisked from your bed in the wee hours and end up by dawn in some Romanian prison, the system simply cannot do that.
 

Alsacien

MIA
Moderator
#11
Markintime said:
Drlligaf said:
ericthellama said:
Nobody questions that you'll get a fair trial, you'll just get it somewhere else within the EU.
I do. The western part of the EU may be OK, but I have strong doubts about some of the newer members, and even stronger doubts about certain prospective members.
Midnight Express?
.....was constantly on my mind while in Turkey - great deterrent, I was always on my best behaviour!!
 
#12
As national boundaries and identities are broken down to make way for the uniformity of EU law and identity, these dodgy legal systems will eventually have to toe the line. It will take quite a while to impose the complete EU framework on their existing systems though. I guess we could argue that it would be wise to wait until they meet Western civilised standards before allowing them to extradite without contest. I don't see that happening though. We will have to live with the occasional injustice for a few decades while the steamroller of uniformity does its work.
 
#13
ericthellama said:
As national boundaries and identities are broken down to make way for the uniformity of EU law and identity, these dodgy legal systems will eventually have to toe the line. It will take quite a while to impose the complete EU framework on their existing systems though. I guess we could argue that it would be wise to wait until they meet Western civilised standards before allowing them to extradite without contest. I don't see that happening though. We will have to live with the occasional injustice for a few decades while the steamroller of uniformity does its work.
Why should we? Our country and people have gone to war for less.

As for getting a fair trial, how can you have one without being there? Ericthellama: such platitudes as the cráp you have posted here are a clear indication of your stupidity, naivety and an indicator of how easy a police state can emerge if there is no-one prepared to stand for democracy, personal freedom, restrictions on the State and the rule of law.

Ord Sgt: once again you place far too much hope in having a benign State aparatus (something which the EU is not). By the time they kick in the door at dark o'clock in the morning they will already have found you guilty and the UK will already have surrended any power to keep you in the UK (they have in fact done the opposite: signed up to helping foriegn police). As a result there will be no extradition hearing in the UK. You will not go to a UK police station. You will be taken straight to the nearest airport in the back of a van and flown out of the country.

While they are supposed to track you down before the trial in order to all you to prepare a defence and attend, does anyone on this site really believe that the Bulgarians (and their ilk) are going to bother? Once you have been convicted in absentia you are guilty, and worse still, guilty in the eyes of the UK authorities. In other words, you can be fúcked for a "crime" (which may not even constitute a crime under UK law) which you may not have committed (identity theft anyone?), and have no right of appeal in the UK.

I am off to the supermarket to get some stronger tin-foil as the current stuff obviously isn't up to the job.
 
#14
funny this. one moment everybody demands draconian punishment for criminals the next moment everybody's worried about their rights.

no foreign police force will kick in your door for parking fines btw. that'd be a bit too much hassle, in fact the whole process of NOT having a trial in absence can be a hassle too for every side. these processes need to be speeded up.

hey the australian court actually tried me while i was absent last year BOOHOO
 

Alsacien

MIA
Moderator
#15
I think unlikely that the Finnish police will kick in the door of your semi-detached in Milton Keynes at 0300, throw you on a Lear Jet at a private airfield, for you to awake from your drug induced coma in Helsinki, if you are suspected of shoplifting in the duty free.
Presumably a somewhat serious crime would have to have been committed in that country - with enough evidence to identify you as a suspect?

On this forum we are normally somewhere to the right of Genghis Khan when it comes to crime and punishment, not to mention somewhat critical of the British justice system.

Now everyone is worrying about suspected criminals human rights and breaking out the Amnesty International badges :wink:
 
#16
Alsacien said:
On this forum we are normally somewhere to the right of Genghis Khan when it comes to crime and punishment, not to mention somewhat critical of the British justice system.

Now everyone is worrying about suspected criminals human rights and breaking out the Amnesty International badges :wink:
my point exactly, it doesn't really matter in which direction the opinion swings as long as it OUTRAGEOUS
 
#17
Dread. I didn't say I liked it, but I have changed my take on the whole Euro issue recently.

We never have had, and never will have an opportunity to vote on whether we agree to being dragged into the European super state. The massive inertia that is slowly dismantling the nation states has no interest in whether you want it or not. You are not considered capable of making an informed decision. If you pick over the history of the EU and delve back through your newspapers, you will find any number of decisions made in your name and without your consent. We bleat about it at the time, and then just accept it. They are small things, spread out over time and gradually eased into your life. The fact is, whether you like it or not, the machine will grind on.

The British Parliament can only act within the framework of EU Law. We are free to interpret it, but it still constrains our final decisions. We fall down on that in the UK. When Italy decided to get rid of a Mad Mullah, he was out of the country within 24hrs. Does my memory serve me correctly or is that one-eyed, hook handed chap still enjoying life at my expense?

Naive is not recognising the true state of affairs, and thinking that somehow we can turn the clock back. The inertia behind it is too great. Look forward and find a way of derailing the behemoth in the future. Understand your enemy, and stop tilting at windmills.
 

Alsacien

MIA
Moderator
#19
over_the_hill said:
But you can now be extradited, without reference to a UK court, for "crimes" which are not crimes iin the UK. e.g. xenophobia.
Or maybe the German police will not care if you goose step up and down your garden path in an SS uniform shouting "sieg heil" - they may bother if you did it on the Unter den Linden.......

Just remember Xenophobia is not a crime if you can prove you hate everyone equally :wink:
 
#20
Alsacien said:
I think unlikely that the Finnish police will kick in the door of your semi-detached in Milton Keynes at 0300, throw you on a Lear Jet at a private airfield, for you to awake from your drug induced coma in Helsinki, if you are suspected of shoplifting in the duty free.
Presumably a somewhat serious crime would have to have been committed in that country - with enough evidence to identify you as a suspect?

On this forum we are normally somewhere to the right of Genghis Khan when it comes to crime and punishment, not to mention somewhat critical of the British justice system.

Now everyone is worrying about suspected criminals human rights and breaking out the Amnesty International badges :wink:
My bold.

It couldn't have something to do with using any stick to beat the EU with, could it?
 
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