ETS LDI (?) Posts

#21
I don't have a downer on ETS at all. I think AECs do provide a good service and i really like the idea of LDIs - I just think that the majority of the good stuff is provided by the civilian element and I can't see the justification for an entire branch with all the costs and commitment that entails, when if you are in a unit 99% of your education support is provided by civilians. I can't see the role for the uniformed officer element and would genuinely like someone to explain it. I am willing to be persuaded!
 
#22
outsider_1970 said:
I don't have a downer on ETS at all. I think AECs do provide a good service and i really like the idea of LDIs - I just think that the majority of the good stuff is provided by the civilian element and I can't see the justification for an entire branch with all the costs and commitment that entails, when if you are in a unit 99% of your education support is provided by civilians. I can't see the role for the uniformed officer element and would genuinely like someone to explain it. I am willing to be persuaded!
By that argument, why have military personnel as clerks, medics, doctors, nurses, logisticians, engineers, chefs or mechanics as in some way civies have taken over those roles. Even on Ops we have civies, in some cases, doing those jobs.

You are more against DEs rather than the ETS as a whole, and I am confused as to why this is.

Also, 99% of education IS NOT done by civvies. It's a team effort and I will be involved in every aspect of soldiers and officers education along with civie staff and I am quite capable of doing almost all of it without them. However, the work load is high and the civilians are very good at what they do, allowing me to do other general officer work and ETS work. They're also cheaper than NCOs or Officers.

So in effect, the role of uniformed Officers is the same as every other unit in the Armed Forces. To manage those you work with, to be responsible for the workload overall and, most importantly, to LEAD those we are responsible for, whether they be civilian or military. It might not be the leadership that infantry or engineers or anyone else might do, but it is still required.

If anyone else reading these from the ETS disagrees, I'd certainly be willing to hear it. By the way, what are your experiences with the ETS?
 
#23
Nick, you have been somewhat convinced by the very marketing which has seen the unreasonable increase in AGC Officers over the past twenty years or so.

Currently there is about one ETS Officer per 250 soldiers. That they do the full commissioning course is a luxury which was introduced, I suspect, to underpin their role's, not for Leadership reasons.

ETS still deliver basic literacy and numeracy skills to the educational sub normal across all ranks. That the teachings delivered are forgotton as soon as most candidates walk off the course seems to pass you by. Courses intoduced in part to justify the role of the RAEC in its day.

The only real service is resettlement and that is delivered by civilians.
 
#24
My experiences with ETS officers have been mixed. I can't see that a Lt instructor in an AEC can be in any way equated to a platoon commander in Helmand. I'm not blaming the ETS officer, it is just a world apart in terms of a demanding and important job. If i couldn't read I wouldn't mind what rank the person was who taught me, just as I don't mind what rank my dentist is. I also don't mind if these people are military or civilian. If the APC could identify WO2s with first degrees who had a couple of years left to serve, they could be posted to AECs on ERE, do their post-graduate course, and, to my mind, provide an excellent service. Couldn't that work? What wouldn't they be able to do? Manage ALC staff, or the Basic Skills people, or the resettlement service? Deliver CLM to JNCOs and SNCOs? The Army would save massively on all the extra costs associated with running an entire career structure of officers and the money could be put to use elsewhere.
 

B_AND_T

MIA
Book Reviewer
#25
To get a balanced view on this I would be interested to know what you do!
 
#26
First, I'm no apologist for the ETS and inwardly am one of the biggest and most vocal critics of the direction the Army Education Service has been going the last two years. But I've not bought into any marketting from the AGc at all. Your comments on the increase in AGC size is interesting, but means nothing to me. Have you got any stats? And are you including the whole of the AGC or just ETS? Lastly, there are only 100 or so officers in the AES, so actually there are perhaps 1000 soldiers to every one educator. The BG I looked after had 1,100 and just me. I was hardly able to travel to see 25% of them, but I did what I could where I could.

As for the comment on a platoon commander...wise up. There are MANY jobs which don't equate exactly, but far brighter and better placed people than you or I see beyond the short term challenge. ETS officers
deploy on their on with BGs and usually have to fight to make the smallest gains. It's certainly not an easy job. It's definitly safer than being a platoon commander, but then so are signals and rmp troop commanders who rarely leave bastion. Does that make their job easy too?

And again, like I've said before, WOs can do a lot of the same work but they don't command units. Do they? No. Even as LEs it's not common for them to command sub units except for HQ coy.

My view of infantry, gunner, engineer officers and all the others is mixed too, but I try not too judge their job because i don't know how to do it. We ETS officers train and study hard to be good officers in our role. Tell me, what role/job do you do so that I can wildly state that anyone could do your job?
 
#28
I certainly haven't said anyone could do your job. ETS have said what LDIs can do and it seems to be pretty much everything that happens in an AEC. Also, with training, most people can do most jobs. LDIs are going to do the same training (ie the post-grad) that officers do, so where is the difference? The AEC in the camp where I work has just closed, leaving no ETS presence in a location with 2 major units, a major HQ and all the other usual minor units. If there really is 1 ETS officer for 250 soldiers (this would suggest an ETS strength of about 350 or so?) then I reckon we should have about 8, but instead we have none. Maybe a combination of civilians and LDIs would mean a wider education presence across the Army. We have WO2s as SO3s in Armoured Brigade HQs and CSgts as Platoon Commanders so why not LDIs managing AECs?
 
#29
outsider_1970 said:
I certainly haven't said anyone could do your job. ETS have said what LDIs can do and it seems to be pretty much everything that happens in an AEC. Also, with training, most people can do most jobs. LDIs are going to do the same training (ie the post-grad) that officers do, so where is the difference? The AEC in the camp where I work has just closed, leaving no ETS presence in a location with 2 major units, a major HQ and all the other usual minor units. If there really is 1 ETS officer for 250 soldiers (this would suggest an ETS strength of about 350 or so?) then I reckon we should have about 8, but instead we have none. Maybe a combination of civilians and LDIs would mean a wider education presence across the Army. We have WO2s as SO3s in Armoured Brigade HQs and CSgts as Platoon Commanders so why not LDIs managing AECs?
first, they are being recruited as instructors and not managers. That's why they can't run an AEC. Second, they're not technically doing a post-grad which now involves study at masters level. They'll do the certificate in education. Last, as I've said already, only about 100 officers are involved in the AEC duties, others to training development, languages, cultural awareness and futures.
 

B_AND_T

MIA
Book Reviewer
#30
Outsider, are you avoiding my question?
 
#33
The ETS in the AECs are there for everyone not just the "Educationally sub-normal" (modern term Special Educational Needs). I well remember the flurry of activity that followed the Comandant RSA setting his subbies essays. I have run pre LE Commisioning Board training and given countless hours of advice on OU etc..

Then there is Training Development, Officer Education, Language Training.

I agree with Nickhere-there are many problems within the ETS but that is for the Branch to sort out. The level of appreciation for the service provided on Ops and in barracks high, at least from the feedback I have received.
 
#34
Nickhere said:
B_AND_T said:
Outsider, are you avoiding my question?
Outsider is angry at Officers. I'm betting: left the Army after being turned away for LE at ETS.
Bit of a 'precious' assumption there mate, which is a shame, as right up until you decided to post that dross, you were doing really well.

Personally, I've only ever met one bad ETS Officer. He shares the same name as a famous haulage firm. That individual aside, I've always found them to be very approachable and on the ball about most subjects. Those which they were uncertain of, they at least had the courage to tell me so, rather than bluff it out like my own officers did.

An ETS Lt may not be so 'wordly wise' as a WO, but everybody brings something with them to the party. I'd like to see WO's employed in the roles discussed as I reckon that the exchange of experience/skills would be a winner. I don't know if he's still with you, but the Officer formerly known as the RSM 2RRF was a diamond.
 
#35
My tuppence worth: the ETS has some excellent people but they are not employed/deployed as well as they could be.

I would advocate moving to ETS officers with every Bn. If there are 100 odd officers in the AES, this would allow each big unit to have their own dedicated education officer. This is different to the unit outreach scheme, which rarely worked.

The individual, post BT course would be posted to the unit, live in the mess and do all the duties/AT etc that the RA/inf/RE officers do. They would be the point of call for basic skills/personal development/further education/higher education. They would be much better integrated into the field army and able to teach many more people.

Soldiers being soldiers, very few will voluntarily find education; education needs to find them.

Any thought?
 
#36
For the record the AES is about 150 officers, mind you that does include the overpaid self-important indivduals at HQ DETS(A) (with some very honourable exceptions).

So about 700 per AES officer is the ratio.

I'd like to see if there is any feedback from serving personnel who have been taught by our new LDI colleagues. The jury is still out as many of us have not had the pleasure of contact with them yet?
 
#37
Rufus-T-Firefly said:
Nickhere said:
B_AND_T said:
Outsider, are you avoiding my question?
Outsider is angry at Officers. I'm betting: left the Army after being turned away for LE at ETS.
Bit of a 'precious' assumption there mate, which is a shame, as right up until you decided to post that dross, you were doing really well.

.
Well, yes, perhaps. But he does seem to have a real downer on it which seems a bit unreasonable and unjustified.

In reply to Iffley, I think it's a great idea to have an Edumacator with every battalion. However, I don't think that it is really feasible. The entire AES can;t just sit with one person per battalion, as the wider ETS work would go undone. For example, I am doing support for a deployable brigade on LE commissioning, which takes a huge amount of time. If I was on my own looking after a whole Bn, I'd never have time to do wider Army support. Nor would I probably do much educating, as I'd get dragged off to do other stuff which I'm not supposed to do.
 
#38
pmc_abo said:
For the record the AES is about 150 officers, mind you that does include the overpaid self-important indivduals at HQ DETS(A) (with some very honourable exceptions).

So about 700 per AES officer is the ratio.

I'd like to see if there is any feedback from serving personnel who have been taught by our new LDI colleagues. The jury is still out as many of us have not had the pleasure of contact with them yet?
Nice smokescreen. So what are the rest doing?
 
#39
western said:
pmc_abo said:
For the record the AES is about 150 officers, mind you that does include the overpaid self-important indivduals at HQ DETS(A) (with some very honourable exceptions).

So about 700 per AES officer is the ratio.

I'd like to see if there is any feedback from serving personnel who have been taught by our new LDI colleagues. The jury is still out as many of us have not had the pleasure of contact with them yet?
Nice smokescreen. So what are the rest doing?
For the millionth time...Linguists, Training Development Advisors, Military Studies at Harrogate, L&IT wing at Harrogate, Officers at E2, HQ in DETS (A) and instructors at Army School Of Education.

What did you think they were doing, going on a permenant holiday or something? 'Smoke screen' my arse.
 
#40
Yes but all of those jobs, or the greater majority of them could be civilianised along with the AES. That is if the roles can be justified. It may not have passed your attention that the MOD has been told to cut costs.
 

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