Estonia removes Soviet memorial

#2
Its being moved to a cemetery - I can't see the problem. Russia and the ethnic Russians should bear in mind their country's past behaviour toward Estonia before complaining - invading as part of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact: hardly their finest hour was it?
 
#3
Im with troopie on this one, I dont think it should be moved, but I can understand it as long as they move to somewhere appropriate, like the cemetary. If they were just going to tear it down, then absolutly not.
 

OldSnowy

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#4
Yes, the Estonian view of recent history is 2 years of extremely brutal Russian occupation (1939-41) followed by 3 years of German occupation (in comparison, not so bad for the locals - unless they were Jewish, or someone else the Germans did not approve of) followed by 47 years of further Russian occupation.

I can see the Estonian's point, and it's not something new. There are several countries around the world where British War Memorials have been either destroyed, defaced or at best left to rot. I wouldn't think that there are many French memorials in Algeria either.

It's all part of the joys of retrreat from Empire, I'm afraid.
 
#5
I have spoken to an Estonian mate, who lives about 400m away from the memorial and have invited him to post his comments.

msr
 
#6
When Stalin occupied Estonia in June 1940 1/3 of the population was deported to the Gulags. Some Estonians joined with the Germans after 1941 as they didn't want the Russians back. When they returned in '44 more Estonians were deported or killed and Ethnic Russians resettled in the country.

After 1991 there were moves to disenfranchise Russians in Estonia but this was changed after discussions with Russia.

In Prague, Budapest and other cities the Sov memorials have been removed from prominenet places or placed in more appropriate locations. I know this will upset the WW2 veterans, but they were not the ones occupying the countries post war which resulted in so much revulsion against the USSR.

I think as long as the memorial is placed in the cemetery as suggested then that is an appropriate place for reflection and pligrimage.

As an earlier post pointed out, many British memorials in countries have been defaced or moved. The statue of Gordon in Khartoum had to be taken away after independence and brought back to UK.

Such is life.
 
#9
Additional info about the dismantled monument.

The project was accoplished by Estonian architect Arnold Alas and sculptor Enn Rooz. As a model the Estonian soldier Kristian Palusalu was used. The final plan for the monument was approved in May of 1946.

There were many Estonians in the Red army (including a brother of former Estonian president). Unlike such counties as Hungary it is also their (Estonian veterans) monument.

 
#10
KGB_resident said:
Additional info about the dismantled monument.

The project was accoplished by Estonian architect Arnold Alas and sculptor Enn Rooz. As a model the Estonian soldier Kristian Palusalu was used. The final plan for the monument was approved in May of 1946.

There were many Estonians in the Red army (including a brother of former Estonian president). Unlike such counties as Hungary it is also their (Estonian veterans) monument.

If it commemorates Estonians then why shouldn't they move it?
 
#11
MERI said:
Tonight, angry Russian-speaking drunk youths and drug addicts literally devastated the city centre, looting shops and drinking right on the streets.
Some pictures can be seen here:
http://albumid.pri.ee/thumbnails.php?album=311&page=1
http://pilt.delfi.ee/album/19402/
http://pilt.delfi.ee/album/19390/
http://public.fotki.com/FotkiEstonia/2007/report-tnisme-action/
I fear it is just only the begining. And how it would end only God knows. Even Kosovo scenario can't be excluded.
 
#12
radioactiveman said:
If it commemorates Estonians then why shouldn't they move it?
Of course inside their own country the Estonians can do anything. To open memorials for SS for example.



 
#14
Steady now Sergey.
If you wish to provide a link I'll happily read it, but you're on very dangerous ground here. Nobody would argue that glorifying the SS is a good thing in fact absolutely despicable, but in all honesty, what were the NKVD (or OGPU or whatever they were calling themselves that week) up to in the same country. I would remind you that the USSR invaded a sovereign nation after conducting grubby back-door deals with Nazi-Germany over the fate of Eastern Europe - Within living memory. It is for the Estonians to choose what goes on in their own country without Russian interference (again).
 
#15
KGB_resident said:
radioactiveman said:
If it commemorates Estonians then why shouldn't they move it?
Of course inside their own country the Estonians can do anything. To open memorials for SS for example.



8O Uh... alrighty then. Perhaps a flyable Il-2 or a dozen could be found to introduce these modern day shutzstaffel to the treatment their predecessors deservedly received eh? :twisted:
 
#16
Bearing in mind the Estonian SS only fought on the Eastern Front, were all volunteers and believed the anti-bolshevik crusade propaganda from Berlin I suppose they feel they were patriots. Especially as they were fighting the perceived (and established 1940/41) invaders of their sovereignty.

Note also the Finns, Latvians, Lithuanians, Ukrainians etc all decided to back the wrong horse as well. (Although it seemed a GOOD IDEA AT THE TIME)
 
#17
intli said:
Bearing in mind the Estonian SS only fought on the Eastern Front, were all volunteers and believed the anti-bolshevik crusade propaganda from Berlin I suppose they feel they were patriots. Especially as they were fighting the perceived (and established 1940/41) invaders of their sovereignty.

Note also the Finns, Latvians, Lithuanians, Ukrainians etc all decided to back the wrong horse as well. (Although it seemed a GOOD IDEA AT THE TIME)
I'd also imagine that with Russian/Soviet rule being in living memory of that generation,fighting the Soviets was certainly more preferable to fighting the Germans.
 
#18
And the ukrainians and the cossacks all fighting against the soviet system. The Germans though handled the whole thing with much stupidity, ignorance and arrogance thanks to their idiotic racial ideas.

How many intact wartime German war memorials do you think there are in the former occupied countries? Not many, i remember seeing the Fallschirmjäger one near Chania on Crete 13 years ago but i understand it's gone now.
 
#19
radioactiveman said:
Steady now Sergey.
If you wish to provide a link I'll happily read it, but you're on very dangerous ground here. Nobody would argue that glorifying the SS is a good thing in fact absolutely despicable, but in all honesty, what were the NKVD (or OGPU or whatever they were calling themselves that week) up to in the same country. I would remind you that the USSR invaded a sovereign nation after conducting grubby back-door deals with Nazi-Germany over the fate of Eastern Europe - Within living memory. It is for the Estonians to choose what goes on in their own country without Russian interference (again).
The main problem now is how the removal of the monument was done.

http://en.rian.ru/world/20070425/64373816.html

Estonia promises not to move Bronze Soldier before May 9

25/ 04/ 2007

Exhumation of Soviet soldiers' remains near the Bronze Soldier statue in Tallinn will start soon, but the statue will not be moved before VE Day May 9, Estonia's prime minister said Wednesday.
But can Russian believe promises of Estonia and in more wide context NATO and EU?

http://en.rian.ru/world/20070427/64546318.html

The controversial Soviet-era WWII monument in central Tallinn has been cut up and taken out of the city center, the Estonian government press service said Friday.

The Soviet-era World War II memorial was removed from the central square in Tallinn overnight despite the Estonian premier's assurances that it would stay in place until Victory Day on May 9. The move is a breaking point in a long standing dispute with Russia over monuments to Soviet soldiers, whom Estonia considers occupants.

"The Bronze Soldier has been cut up into separate pieces and taken out of the city center. Currently it is under police protection. Information about its whereabouts is not being released," the press service said. The press service declined to say whether the monument will ever be restored. "I cannot answer this question," the spokesman said.
It is a humiliation, insulting hooliganism. It was possible to transfer the monument (it is now so huge, only 6 ft) without destruction into Russia or other part of Tallinn.

And note, Estonia is not Sudan. It is a EU and NATO member. What Russia can expect form NATO? Broken promises? 17 years ago Soviet Union was told that NATO would not deploy its troops in former Warsaw pack countries.
 
#20
Its their country they can do what they want can not think a red army memorial would be very popular in a baltic state.Should have been handled
better .Its not like everyone wanted it gone a dignified move to a cemetry
would have been better.
 

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