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Equipment versus training

theoriginalphantom

MIA
Book Reviewer
I have great memories of being part of the DS for an exercise for 4/73 (I was not part of 4/73)
they knew I was out so 'oh there is going to be some cas play'

they get the brief to patrol along here, pass by the supposedly covert OP and carry on. As they go past the covert OP, lots of shouting, gunfire, explosions and smoke, they move in and surprise casualties.
What they were not expecting was the amputees. It was the early days of using the limbless as casualties - Swifty (ex guardsman) was one.
one of the lads comes round the corner, takes a look, then his jaw dropped as he realises the lad on the ground is missing his legs. The blood pumps were working perfectly, Our gunner takes a second look then a third before being able to react.

During the treatment swifty is asking stuff like 'will I be able to dance again?' and "how long before they grow back?"

There was a lot of really positive feedback from that. There usually was when we had good cas-sim play.


One thing that always came back from people on the ground on tour when they'd dealt with real incidents was along the lines of 'it was easier as we'd done it with the amputees'
 

The_Duke

LE
Moderator
I have great memories of being part of the DS for an exercise for 4/73 (I was not part of 4/73)
they knew I was out so 'oh there is going to be some cas play'

they get the brief to patrol along here, pass by the supposedly covert OP and carry on. As they go past the covert OP, lots of shouting, gunfire, explosions and smoke, they move in and surprise casualties.
What they were not expecting was the amputees. It was the early days of using the limbless as casualties - Swifty (ex guardsman) was one.
one of the lads comes round the corner, takes a look, then his jaw dropped as he realises the lad on the ground is missing his legs. The blood pumps were working perfectly, Our gunner takes a second look then a third before being able to react.

During the treatment swifty is asking stuff like 'will I be able to dance again?' and "how long before they grow back?"

There was a lot of really positive feedback from that. There usually was when we had good cas-sim play.


One thing that always came back from people on the ground on tour when they'd dealt with real incidents was along the lines of 'it was easier as we'd done it with the amputees'
Some of the best med training I have ever done was with a civilian run (but mainly ex first responder/military) company on the edge of the Ft Bragg training area.

They had remote control amputee dummies rigged with blood pumps, pulse points etc. Dressed in uniform, cas sim blood everywhere and a decent waft of smoke into the room and it stopped some highly experienced blokes in their tracks. Do it right, bleeding stops. Do it wrong, claret continues to go everywhere.

I have never seen them in the UK. Do we have anything similar?
 

Rooper

War Hero
Some of the best med training I have ever done was with a civilian run (but mainly ex first responder/military) company on the edge of the Ft Bragg training area.

They had remote control amputee dummies rigged with blood pumps, pulse points etc. Dressed in uniform, cas sim blood everywhere and a decent waft of smoke into the room and it stopped some highly experienced blokes in their tracks. Do it right, bleeding stops. Do it wrong, claret continues to go everywhere.

I have never seen them in the UK. Do we have anything similar?
 

theoriginalphantom

MIA
Book Reviewer
Some of the best med training I have ever done was with a civilian run (but mainly ex first responder/military) company on the edge of the Ft Bragg training area.

They had remote control amputee dummies rigged with blood pumps, pulse points etc. Dressed in uniform, cas sim blood everywhere and a decent waft of smoke into the room and it stopped some highly experienced blokes in their tracks. Do it right, bleeding stops. Do it wrong, claret continues to go everywhere.

I have never seen them in the UK. Do we have anything similar?


I used to use a couple of my own trauma dolls , like a full body resusi anne, but with interchangeable wounds, I made a couple of amputations up (one made by a proper makeup artist) I had manual pumps in mine, but changed them out for a home made contraption - put a couple of fizzy tablets into the blood mix and let the pressure spray the blood out, as the tablet dissolves the pressure reduces and the bleeding stops as if the casualty has bled out.
If the blood bladder had pressure in at the end, then it worked, if it was empty, they'd failed
 

Tyk

LE
I used to use a couple of my own trauma dolls , like a full body resusi anne, but with interchangeable wounds, I made a couple of amputations up (one made by a proper makeup artist) I had manual pumps in mine, but changed them out for a home made contraption - put a couple of fizzy tablets into the blood mix and let the pressure spray the blood out, as the tablet dissolves the pressure reduces and the bleeding stops as if the casualty has bled out.
If the blood bladder had pressure in at the end, then it worked, if it was empty, they'd failed

That and your previous post highlights exactly the value of good training and practice, in my world we do similar (minus the claret and thunderflashes other than some very rarely used, but clever pyro effects when I'm allowed them) on things like disaster recovery, disaster planning, emergency evacs of buildings etc.
The ones that really highlight the issues that have to be fixed are where we get permission to run ambush testing where the operational types have absolutely zero notice and the cack hits them full in the face. Sadly that's rare to get permission to do.

As we've had submissions from multiple DS staff on this and other threads I'm even more resoundingly certain that there is no substitute for thorough and regular enough training apart from real world and fairly recent experience. When it comes to military stuff be it combat or medical related it's really time well spent as it's genuine life and death.
 
Circa 2009, one of the complaints I often heard from some troops, who were on their second or third tours, was that there were some NCO’s with no operational experience taking them on exercise and conducting poor training.

Ive always said that any infantry training should be instructed by the actual infantry rather than the support arms reading instructions out of a big book.
 

The_Duke

LE
Moderator
I used to use a couple of my own trauma dolls , like a full body resusi anne, but with interchangeable wounds, I made a couple of amputations up (one made by a proper makeup artist) I had manual pumps in mine, but changed them out for a home made contraption - put a couple of fizzy tablets into the blood mix and let the pressure spray the blood out, as the tablet dissolves the pressure reduces and the bleeding stops as if the casualty has bled out.
If the blood bladder had pressure in at the end, then it worked, if it was empty, they'd failed
The pumps were only part of it. The really good part was that the limbs themselves were remote controlled. The DS was tucked away in the corner of the room with what looked like a model aircraft controller. The dummy wasn’t passive. The stumps were thrashing, pushing blood around the area and you had to wrestle to gain control of a pressure point then get a tourniquet on.
 
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Tyk

LE
The pumps were only part of it. The really good part was that the limbs themselves were remote controlled. The DS was tucked away in the corner of the room with what looked like a model aircraft controller. The dummy wasn’t passive. The stumps were thrashing, pushing blood around the area and you had to wrestle to gain control of a pressure one get a tourniquet on.

Even though you know it's a dummy that has to be prone to putting you off your stride. Impressive training approach.
 

The_Duke

LE
Moderator
Yup, been involved in scenarios with these during PDT. It made a huge difference, and makes first aider interaction with the casualty feel more normal.

I was thinking more about the dummies for in unit training, as you tend to only see the amputee actors during PDT or perhaps a major exercise.
 

The_Duke

LE
Moderator
Even though you know it's a dummy that has to be prone to putting you off your stride. Impressive training approach.
It does. More importantly, you couldn’t do the notional “look, I’ve applied some indirect pressure to the artery” and hope to score on the sheet. If you didn’t find it - and apply and keep real pressure - the blood kept coming!
 
Circa 2009, one of the complaints I often heard from some troops, who were on their second or third tours, was that there were some NCO’s with no operational experience taking them on exercise and conducting poor training.
It use to make me cringe listening to SNCOs spinning tour dit’s to trainees in the factory, knowing they’d done feck all ever. The ******* cowards
 

theoriginalphantom

MIA
Book Reviewer

theoriginalphantom

MIA
Book Reviewer
Yup, been involved in scenarios with these during PDT. It made a huge difference, and makes first aider interaction with the casualty feel more normal.

I was thinking more about the dummies for in unit training, as you tend to only see the amputee actors during PDT or perhaps a major exercise.

The cheap trauma dolls started about £1400 a piece (not the price I paid for them) when I got mine. I think I saw them in one unit in my time. There were clinical dolls that could be remotely controlled to give different clinical signs. I never got to use it though
 
An observer once wry observed that the only person who never had any meaningful say in the procurement and selection of his equipment was the end user.

I have seen specification for mil equipment that was not written by someone who has used the equipment previously or actually understood how it would be used. I was speaking to someone involved and said that there obviously is no SME employed to discuss with the procurement side of life "what is needed". Trouble is SME input tends to be in the trials phase where the 1st comment tends to be "who the f*ck ordered/designed/asked for this"!!
 
Ive always said that any infantry training should be instructed by the actual infantry rather than the support arms reading instructions out of a big book.
Same here mate, always said that the only thing worse than the infanteer, was a signaller who thought he was infantry. A la tropic trousers and SAS smock
 

Tyk

LE
The cheap trauma dolls started about £1400 a piece (not the price I paid for them) when I got mine. I think I saw them in one unit in my time. There were clinical dolls that could be remotely controlled to give different clinical signs. I never got to use it though

I can't say I'm surprised they're pricey, not exactly a mass market item, sound bloody (sorry) useful though and a worthwhile investment.

It does. More importantly, you couldn’t do the notional “look, I’ve applied some indirect pressure to the artery” and hope to score on the sheet. If you didn’t find it - and apply and keep real pressure - the blood kept coming!

Yup more than box ticking and if you utterly goose it you can go back and start again until you get it right which isn't something you want to have to do in a real claret everywhere scenario.
I'm really impressed by the approach.
It also reminds me I need to arrange a first aid course once this lockdown bollocks is over, the last time I did one was 20+ years ago. I've looked at the likes of the Red Cross and they only appear to do them over Zoom which is less use than a chocolate teapot in my book.
 

Slime

LE
I used to use a couple of my own trauma dolls , like a full body resusi anne, but with interchangeable wounds, I made a couple of amputations up (one made by a proper makeup artist) I had manual pumps in mine, but changed them out for a home made contraption - put a couple of fizzy tablets into the blood mix and let the pressure spray the blood out, as the tablet dissolves the pressure reduces and the bleeding stops as if the casualty has bled out.
If the blood bladder had pressure in at the end, then it worked, if it was empty, they'd failed

After I had done the casualty simulation course I really wanted to make exercises and injuries as realistic as I could, but I just couldn’t get any support. If I wanted gash clothing to dress casualties up in the Q would always rip them up before handing them over, so a casualty in a landy supposedly unconscious with carbon monoxide poisoning or a head wound would have rips in his trousers and top! Bloody stupid.

I did manage to source bones from a butcher though, and those were far better than the previous bits of wood others had used to simulate an open fracture. When I used to see that I’d have to say ‘Ooh, you’ve got one hell of a splinter in you’ :)
 
The pumps were only part of it. The really good part was that the limbs themselves were remote controlled. The DS was tucked away in the corner of the room with what looked like a model aircraft controller. The dummy wasn’t passive. The stumps were thrashing, pushing blood around the area and you had to wrestle to gain control of a pressure point then get a tourniquet on.

Ah, there’s your problem right there, you are dealing with an American situation.

We British take our amputations with aplomb, quietly and calmly while you lot fanny about down there. Nobody offers a brew though, do they? Jack bastàrds.
 
The CAS Sim training sounds very good, but at some point an accountant will take a look at it and it will become a DLE course. This will bee supported by the fact that we haven't needed it for a few years. I was taught component level fault finding, a skill that I still use today in general problem solving. Do they do it now no, can you get anyone to listen to the the value of underpinning knowledge and equipment to support it...no. The one advantage you have with the casualty stuff is that you will have staff officers that actually benefitted from it for the next 15 years, after that death by powerpoint.
 
I have great memories of being part of the DS for an exercise for 4/73 (I was not part of 4/73)
they knew I was out so 'oh there is going to be some cas play'

they get the brief to patrol along here, pass by the supposedly covert OP and carry on. As they go past the covert OP, lots of shouting, gunfire, explosions and smoke, they move in and surprise casualties.
What they were not expecting was the amputees. It was the early days of using the limbless as casualties - Swifty (ex guardsman) was one.
one of the lads comes round the corner, takes a look, then his jaw dropped as he realises the lad on the ground is missing his legs. The blood pumps were working perfectly, Our gunner takes a second look then a third before being able to react.

During the treatment swifty is asking stuff like 'will I be able to dance again?' and "how long before they grow back?"

There was a lot of really positive feedback from that. There usually was when we had good cas-sim play.


One thing that always came back from people on the ground on tour when they'd dealt with real incidents was along the lines of 'it was easier as we'd done it with the amputees'
We used amputees in action for a training serial once. We hadn't briefed the training audience (but they knew casualties were to be expected).

The first pair of first aiders came around the corner, saw the bloke with a missing leg and (lamb's) blood pissing out of the end of his thigh and both promptly fainted.

We had to pause the exercise for a while...
 

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