Equality and Diversity - ageism question

#1
Just a quickie to a)get some answers and b) stimulate debate

As we now have an equality and diversity policy in the Army, what is the legal position as regards age descrimination for courses/ promotion boards etc?
 
#2
what has age got to do with it really?

if you join at 17 or 32 or whatever oldest age is allowed, if you need a course you need a course,if your boss thinks your skiving off ops/ex snow queen just to do the course, well he is the boss...if its about promotion course, if your boss thinks you shouldn't go, maybe your not ready for promotion in their view?
 
#3
canteen_cowboy said:
what has age got to do with it really?

if you join at 17 or 32 or whatever oldest age is allowed, if you need a course you need a course,if your boss thinks your skiving off ops/ex snow queen just to do the course, well he is the boss...if its about promotion course, if your boss thinks you shouldn't go, maybe your not ready for promotion in their view?
Just to clarify, this isn't a gripe/ get some ammunition, this is a genuine enquiry/ debate on age policy :) . As the Army no longer discriminates on grounds of race, sexuality, religion etc how can they say that someone is too old/ young for a course if they can show aptitude in every other way?
 
#4
I think that is a moot point. A true lack of discrimination would include a disciplinary process for those who use their age, race, gender, sexuality etc to gain unfair advantage or exception.

As for the age thig a total nonsense. I am old and had to go through a group briefing on this at work. As the oldest in the group I was asked to comment. My response was ' It is a fact of nature that I am a grumpy old sod and you may continue to refer to me as one' and they still do. There followed a debate as to whether celebrating peoples birthdays was ageism in the workplace.
 
#5
Here is a example then (and it doesn't impact on me as I'm out because of this issue). As a LE you can, and do, get promoted on merit up to and including Major. After that the promotion to Lt Col is based on age (52 and in your last tour?).

So a LE major who in all other regards is ready for promotion and if boarded would be in the promotion zone cannot get promoted because the system selects an arbitrary age.

I must admit my point of view is clouded by a strawman paper that I saw saying that to make LE Lt Col promotion open regardless of age ‘...would result in DE (Direct Entry) Officers who would have otherwise expected to promote not being selected’; perhaps I am overly suspicious?
 
#6
if you are fit enough at the higher age scale then you should be allowed to do such cses as aacc para, sf? but obviously there must be a duty of care

i know its gender friendly and age friendly when it comes to pft etc so its a good point when it comes to age for such other cses
 
#7
Sorry to be a bit of a groaning old git, but, has the army really gone this way?

Are we really this bad that we have to have all this shite going on as well as the work thats in hand?

Im lost as to the things I read on here, ageism? diversity? rights? wtf has happened since I left?

Do people actually do as they are ordered anymore? or do you all sit round and discuss things until everyone is happy?

Is it an army or an outreach group we have now?

Seriously, im confused by some of the things I read.
 
#9
oldcolt said:
As we now have an equality and diversity policy in the Army, what is the legal position as regards age descrimination for courses/ promotion boards etc?
Armed Forces are exempt the legislation surrounding discrimination due to age.

If you don't believe me, read the relevant JSP (available through your RAO)

If you want to test the system, submit a Service Complaint citing discrimination due to your age and see how far it gets (I wouldn't recommend this BTW as the treasury solicitor will be on you like a tramp on chips if you do)
 
#10
Anyone who uses ageism should be required to complete physical tests at the same speed as 18 year olds.
 
#11
oldcolt said:
Just a quickie to a)get some answers and b) stimulate debate

As we now have an equality and diversity policy in the Army, what is the legal position as regards age descrimination for courses/ promotion boards etc?
Top thread,

It applies not only to the Army, but to just about everyone else in goverment service in one role or another.

Perhaps the day of the older conscious competent being ignored is now over.

I still have this problem with the unconscious incompetent diversity crew having the biggest shout though. :wink:
 
#13
JoseyWales said:
oldcolt said:
Just a quickie to a)get some answers and b) stimulate debate

As we now have an equality and diversity policy in the Army, what is the legal position as regards age descrimination for courses/ promotion boards etc?
Top thread,

It applies not only to the Army, but to just about everyone else in goverment service in one role or another.
No it doesn't.
 
#15
Gren said:
Sorry to be a bit of a groaning old git, but, has the army really gone this way?

Are we really this bad that we have to have all this shite going on as well as the work thats in hand?

Im lost as to the things I read on here, ageism? diversity? rights? wtf has happened since I left?

Do people actually do as they are ordered anymore? or do you all sit round and discuss things until everyone is happy?

Is it an army or an outreach group we have now?

Seriously, im confused by some of the things I read.
I obviously don't know how long ago you left but things have certainly changed of late - would you believe a risk assessment has to be completed before contemplating taking part in a rugby match! - I couldn't believe my eyes.

PW
 
#16
kitmonster said:
I must admit my point of view is clouded by a strawman paper that I saw saying that to make LE Lt Col promotion open regardless of age ‘...would result in DE (Direct Entry) Officers who would have otherwise expected to promote not being selected’; perhaps I am overly suspicious?
I don't know about the choice of age - 52 you say - but opening up the promotion criteria wouldn't have a massive impact on DE Officers as the LE career stream is separate to the DE career stream . I suspect the age hurdle is more to do with the number of LE posts available at Lt Col level (it will still take about 12 years to get to Lt Col - 6 as a Capt and 6 as a Maj - so working on commissioning at age 40 then 52 may well be the approximate age for promotion to Lt Col).

I believe LE Officers may transfer to the DE scheme but must complete ICSC and then compete for Company Command posts and subsequent staff posts against their now fellow DE peer group.
 
#17
To the previous posts:

a) Thanks, but I have a great relationship with my PSI :D , in my unit we are encouraged to think for ourselves, challenge current military thinking and think up new solutions to old and new problems. It's just part of being a Rifleman and the ethos/ concept was invented about three hundred years ago and, is why all the Crap hats now train to our standards 8)
BTW I passed out of basic the first time in 1987 with best recruit and didn't do to badly in the LI during the following few years until I left in 2001 :wink: :roll:

b) I'm quite happy to be tested against 18 year olds and am currently doing just that in basic (again) (and beating them in the case of 95% of my group). 1.5 Miles in 9 mins 24 secs and a 6 mile run with 35 lbs in sub one hour. Its for this reason and others mentioned elsewhere, that I started this thread, to promote debate.

c) The Army has changed a great deal as have the roles within it. Not all for the better (E.g. 4 hours equality and diversity training v 20 mins map reading training FFS!!!! :x ) and discipline is definately NOT what it used to be BUT; if we have all the equality/ diversity stuff (some of which IS good) then why not apply it to age as well? If I can do a job FFS let me do it! If a man half my age can't then don't give it to him just because he was born after me! :x

Incoming! :lol:
 
#18
western said:
The Employment Equality (Age) Regulations 2006

Section 44(4) These regulations do not apply to service in any of the naval, military or air forces of the Crown


http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2006/20061031.htm
They may currently be written in stone as an exemption but; so was sex discrimination in many areas and also homosexuality in the forces... until someone challenged it!

The system has changed and not always for the better. The current government and system are rotten. We need a sensible change to both but need to make the most of what we have in the meantime :)
 
#19
Are you suggesting that racism, sexism and homophobia may come back one day? I do hope so!
 
#20
paywog said:
Gren said:
Sorry to be a bit of a groaning old git, but, has the army really gone this way?

Are we really this bad that we have to have all this shite going on as well as the work thats in hand?

Im lost as to the things I read on here, ageism? diversity? rights? wtf has happened since I left?

Do people actually do as they are ordered anymore? or do you all sit round and discuss things until everyone is happy?

Is it an army or an outreach group we have now?

Seriously, im confused by some of the things I read.
I obviously don't know how long ago you left but things have certainly changed of late - would you believe a risk assessment has to be completed before contemplating taking part in a rugby match! - I couldn't believe my eyes.

PW
We might as well give up and go home then, very sad days.....
 

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