EOD and Future Army Structure

Discussion in 'RLC' started by Flying Felix, Aug 19, 2004.

Welcome to the Army Rumour Service, ARRSE

The UK's largest and busiest UNofficial military website.

The heart of the site is the forum area, including:

  1. August Soldier Mag – Sappers to be enhanced with improved EOD capabilities……RLC port and maritime, movements, EOD and medical supply capabilities will be beefed up.

    Anybody got any ideas to what they are planning?

    Is it another move by the Sappers to take more of our work and do it badly or is it a case of the RE getting loads of new kit for work they don’t do and the ATs will get a spare Wheelbarrow battery.
     
  2. woopert

    woopert LE Moderator

    I don't know how long you've been in, but pre-implementation of Options for Change the RE had the bulk of the responsibility for EOD. It would be more a case of them getting it back not taking it.

    As for the med world I've also heard whisper of some movement of PQO's from the RAMC to the RLC as Med Log is considered a generic G4 task, but with specialist PQO knowledge required in terms of prioritising and administering. Personally I'm not convinced of that being the way forward mainly because to badge RAMC PQO's to the RLC would introduce a certain credibility gap on promotion. Better the PQOs stay in the P branches and be recognised for what they are and the skills they bring and be promoted against their peers.
     
  3. Ooooops....

    I hit "edit" not "quote" and managed to erase the post.

    Sorry :oops:

    Woops.
     
  4. woopert

    woopert LE Moderator

     
  5. I detect a light dig at my experience from woopert here!

    Lets just say that I have deployed on two EOD operations while being badged RAOC and have seen first hand the RE run away with their tails between their legs when they tried to take over the AT trade in the early 90’s.

    I should point out the RLC was then given the opportunity to take over all Army EOD operations, but quite rightly refused as they could not man the Sqns nor did we have the required engineer skills for trenching, sapping heavy plant or working in non- tidal underwater operations.

    But let's not let this turn into an Us and them argument.
     
  6. woopert

    woopert LE Moderator

    Not at all, just not making assumptions that's all. I have no idea whether you're a 22 year hairy arrse or a 2 yr sprog. If that's the way it was taken then I apologise because that wasn't what I meant to say at all.
     
  7. Oi, what happened to my post?! :evil:

    Took me ages to write that!
     
  8. Right, I'll type it all again and hope that Woops doesn't make it vanish again. :wink:

    Not so. The deliniation of responsibilty for EOD in the army and between the services hasn't changed for decades. In short:

    RAOC/RLC - IEDD and land service munitions.

    RE - Enemy air dropped munitions, area clearance and search.

    RN - Naval ordnance, items found below the high water mark and items on naval property.

    RAF - Allied air dropped munitions and items on RAF property.

    There are overlaps of capability, but no need to go into the nitty gritty just now.

    RE have generally led in battlefield EOD and EOD on deployed ops because:

    a. It relates to their corps role of aiding and denying mobility.

    b. They were often seen as more 'green' and 'deployable'.

    c. Its easy.

    On MACP ops, tasking statistics show that year on year the bulk of tasks were done by RAOC/RLC: Typically they were and still are around:

    RAOC/RLC - 68%

    RN - 27%

    RE 3%

    RAF - 2%.

    The whole RE EOD organisation was gradually run down to 1 x regular and 2 x TA sqns until the mid 1980s. They then experienced something of a renaissance due to:

    a. The Brighton bomb scaring the life out of the PM, allowing RE to sell search as the panacea for all ills. They are still doing this.

    b. An assessment that the EOD assets available were insufficient to meet the threat from the WP. It was argued that all the airfields would be bombed and there was no one to clear them up. RE ADR was also boosted at this time. ADR has largely gone away, but EOD has not. ADR isn't very sexy.

    The RE periodically attempt to widen their remit. They had 2 x IEDD teams with a very limited remit, but lost these in the mid 1990s. They then started running their own 3 week (!) IEDD course at DEODS for Other Ops. This was never formally accredited and has now stopped, but there are now RE instructors at the IEDD branch at the army school of ammunition.

    The RE have a fantastic PR machine and always make the most of the few tasks they do. The RAOC/RLC were unable to do this with IEDD due to the real threat to operators. I may well be paranoid, but I think that the RE use this publicity as a weapon in the battle for a widening remit, and so funding and survival of their EOD capability.

    So in summary, they are not getting anything back. They are aggressively selling themselves as the be-all and end-all of army EOD. I was beginning to think that their spin had been seen through, but now I'm not so sure.
     
  9. woopert

    woopert LE Moderator

    I accidentally deleted it when I tried to quote you, and not because you proved me wrong either :wink:
     
  10. I can only speak as a close spectator and commentator on MACP / MACM issues in recent past times. Particularly those where civil police at local and ACPO level, and Home Office have been in attendance.

    This decades long p155ing match between RE and RLC EOD, says more to the civil authority about your two capbadges, then your combined operational capability does.

    Without even standing next to SF; it is easy for anyone to look good, whilst you lot are at each other's throats, in front of ACPO ranking advisors. My Omega is faster than your Mondeo. I can also remember " you've only got a bleeper, don't you have a cellphone like mine" :mrgreen:

    If you put as much comittment into the main effort, as you do trying to score points off each other, the world would be a significantly safer place. The Army would have a bit more credibility in the Ops 2 forum as well.

    With the spread of all these police private armies, is it any wonder they are so keen to phase the army out of the Civil Contingencies arena?


    ( Fat, wheezey LE sparks up another Senior Service and walks off to the fridge for another bottle of Newcastle Brown)
     
  11. [The whole RE EOD organisation was gradually run down to 1 x regular and 2 x TA sqns until the mid 1980s. They then experienced something of a renaissance due to:

    a. The Brighton bomb scaring the life out of the PM, allowing RE to sell search as the panacea for all ills. They are still doing this.

    "And they are getting tasked quite regularly by police forces around the country who require assistance, many of which tasks are non EOD related, this therefore has no real bearing on the EOD question. If you took all the EOD capability off the RE tommorow the search would still be there"

    b. An assessment that the EOD assets available were insufficient to meet the threat from the WP. It was argued that all the airfields would be bombed and there was no one to clear them up. RE ADR was also boosted at this time. ADR has largely gone away, but EOD has not. ADR isn't very sexy.

    "There is still a Regiment allocated to provide Air Support (including ADR and RESF) to the RAF, it's not gone anywhere. Furthermore the RAF have always been directly responsible for the clearing of airfields hence their Rapid Airfield Clearance Course. But I'll give you that ADR is seriously not sexy!"

    The RE periodically attempt to widen their remit. They had 2 x IEDD teams with a very limited remit, but lost these in the mid 1990s. They then started running their own 3 week (!) IEDD course at DEODS for Other Ops. This was never formally accredited and has now stopped, but there are now RE instructors at the IEDD branch at the army school of ammunition.

    "The teams where lost shortly after the Regiment moved to Grimbish, primarily because of geographical reasons - 5131 maintain a team covering that area. The course at DEODS was run by RLC capbadged instructors, if there was no formal accreditation how where they allowed to remain at the school teaching the course for over two years? I would agree that the credibility of any RE instructor at the IEDD School is thin to non existant, however we still have to place people on that course due to the fact we are covering the IEDD commitment to the SLE despite not having adequate equipment - believe me, not something the operators are especially comfortable with, but a descision taken well above their pay scales. (And if you have a genuine explanation for that please PM me with it)

    The RE have a fantastic PR machine and always make the most of the few tasks they do. The RAOC/RLC were unable to do this with IEDD due to the real threat to operators. I may well be paranoid, but I think that the RE use this publicity as a weapon in the battle for a widening remit, and so funding and survival of their EOD capability.

    "Definately a bit of paranoia creeping in at the edges there RB, we're not the bad guys closing in on you. As I've stated previously unless this gets sorted at the very highest levels then the problems and bitching are here to stay!

    Always a pleasure RB
    [/list]
     
  12. BLU - my paranoia grows ever worse! :oops: :wink:

    We do enjoy a good pi55ing contest. As stated, the EOD responsibilities are well defined. The bun fights start when people try to encroach on these.

    As far as the original question goes, my understanding is that under FAS there will be a new RE EOD sqn. No bad thing in itself. I guess this will be part of 33 (unless someone at MoD thinks it will be cheaper in 101!)
     
  13. There is to be a new Sqn at 33 but it won't be formed in my time, which is now mercifully short. The current plan is that it will mirror the search sqn that already exists, who are actually quite busy. So then everyone can get some sitting on their arrse time. And we might actually let those brave 101 volunteers go back to their real lives, though getting some of them out of this camp will be like pulling teeth.
    I suggest that when the powers that be have sorted out this whole issue then they move on to the Middle East issue, end world hunger and find a cure for cancer as they will truely be miracle workers!
     
  14. Rowley old chap, you should know what beefing up entails!
    11 Regt creating 50 new LSN`s to fill 3 gapped Troops, with no kit because it is dues out or already in the Gulf.....

    Robbing Peter to pay Paul as usual. Smoke and mirrors sir, they will never know we were here!!

    Mind you just like the rest of the RLC.....EOD? not in our Corps. :wink:
     
  15. Pigsick,

    You think that the increase will be just to re-announce the 3 year old increase in 11 Regt?

    You would think that they would not be able to get away with that, even though it is the cheapest option.

    RE - new Sqn :D

    RLC - a second hand hygienic pad for a bomb suit.:(