English Civil War - Royalist prisoners sold as slaves

The USSR lost rather a lot during its civil war, and more to purges. The comparable Thirty years war killed 15-30% of the Germans, probably a third of Czechs in some states the dies off was over 50%. It's duration that's important here, populations recover from brief wars like WWII or the war of the three kingdoms.
precisely... the instability of the period meant that the harvest was at risk as well.. labourers being mis used as soldiers means everyone starves.
 
It certainly wasn't cricket to behead the King, shouldn't have happened. Nor should they have kept him waiting for 4 hours before doing it, due to them being lilly livered and not wanting to sign the death warrant and the executioner not wanting to do it either. Royalists doff their hats not drop them
 
I heard (i.e., I don't know how much of it is true) that Cromwell sold many Irish prisoners into slavery on sugar plantations in the West Indies; there were reputed to be 'black Irish' on Montserrat in the early 19th century, black slaves whose language largely consisted of Irish words.

The sugar plantations were the boom industry of that time, they were started by English settlers who would make their fortune and retire back to England after 20 years or so. They were the stockbrokers and City bankers of their age; the slaves were probably sold by Parliament to members of their old boy network. The slaves were consumables, worked to death and replacements were then shipped in from wherever human life was cheapest.
 
It certainly wasn't cricket to behead the King, shouldn't have happened. Nor should they have kept him waiting for 4 hours before doing it, due to them being lilly livered and not wanting to sign the death warrant and the executioner not wanting to do it either. Royalists doff their hats not drop them
The regicides were few in number. Many parliamentary generals (Fairfax for example) had nothing to do with it and can be counted as moderates during and after the war. The thing is the Kings absolute refusal to be anything other than a personal monarch strengthened the hand of the radicals as time progressed.The king can be seen as a tragic figure... he certainly lived by his motto of "a king and a subject are clear different things" however, England needed peace and not more intrigue.. it must have taken balls of steel to sign the death warrant.

Im not going to re fight the civil war against you Fairy Nuff !! Ive already done enough of that when I was a musketeer in the Sealed Knot in the 80s !
 
My Lordff! I shall harness the steeds for ye outrage buff..... er carriage!
 
I thought everyone knew that, I mean look at the names of their cotton picking descendants:

Duke Ellington
James Earl Jones
Count Basie
Prince
James "Bubba" Stewart
 
The War of Three Kingdoms lasted for twelve years...hardly a "short" duration?
 
It certainly wasn't cricket to behead the King, shouldn't have happened. Nor should they have kept him waiting for 4 hours before doing it, due to them being lilly livered and not wanting to sign the death warrant and the executioner not wanting to do it either. Royalists doff their hats not drop them
From my reading of it Charles seemed determined to leave Parliament no choice but to kill him.

I wonder if he was a bit Aspergic, because he genuinely seems not to have understood how badly he was winding the Scots up by forcing an unwelcome book of prayer on them, and given the fear of Popery in the land at the time his marrying a top Catholic and then letting Archbishop Laud have free rein with his high Roman style is just bizarre.

He acted throughout like a man who was either determined to loose his head or someone who was simply unable to 'read' the trouble he was causing people.

Revenge was had against the Regicides in the end though, even the chippie who built the scaffold was later hunted down and hanged.
 
King Charles I's problem was that he absolutely believed in the divine right,and infallibility that suggested, of kings. Moreover he was unlucky enough to think like that at a stage in the enlightenment when the reverse had become thinkable. Immovable object, irresistible force ergo regicide...
 
Revenge was had against the Regicides in the end though, even the chippie who built the scaffold was later hunted down and hanged.
Tell me they hanged him on his own scaffold.
 
Ok - "they hanged him on his own scaffold"...except they didn't!

edited to add

It is generally accepted that the identity of the executioners of Charles I will never be known. The story goes that the regular executioner, Richard Brandon, wanted nothing to do with the execution of a man who was king by divine right and that officials had to delay the execution while they roamed London for someone to do it.

Various theories have been put forward in terms of naming the man who executed Charles I. One is that the executioner was Richard Brandon. Instead of refusing to carry out the execution as history books would lead you to believe, it is thought that Brandon made it publicly known that he would refuse to behead Charles but, in fact, did so simply because it was his job.

In 1660, William Hulet was put on trial for carrying out the deed. One witness, Richard Gittens, claimed at the trial of Hulet that he was at the execution and recognised Hulet’s voice after Hulet had asked Charles to forgive him. However, for his defence a number of witnesses claimed that Richard Brandon had privately admitted on a number of occasions after January 1649 to beheading Charles. One of the defence witnesses, William Cox, claimed that he had heard Brandon at a later execution in the Palace Yard at Westminster, admit to one of those about to be executed, Lord Capel, that it was he who had beheaded Charles.

The executioner’s assistant is also unknown as, like the executioner, he wore a mask. However, there are some who believe that it was a Parliamentarian named George Joyce.

The principal evidence against Joyce came from an astrologer called William Lilly. Before a Parliamentary committee, Lilly described a dinner he attended. At the same dinner was Robert Spavin, Cromwell’s secretary. Lilly claimed that the sole discussion at the dinner was the execution of Charles – something that had occurred just over a week before this dinner. One of those at the dinner claimed that the executioner was “the Common Hangman” (a reference to Richard Brandon’s official title). However, Spavin made the claim that the executioner’s assistant was Lieutenant Colonel Joyce and that at the time no one knew his identity except Cromwell, Ireton and Spavin himself.

The register of St. Mary Matfellon, Whitechapel, records the burial of two remarkable persons—Brandon, the supposed executioner of Charles I., and Parker, the leader of the Mutiny at the Nore. Brandon was a ragman, in Rosemary Lane. The entry is—"1649. June 2. Richard Brandon, a man out of Rosemary Lane." And to this is added the following memorandum: "This R. Brandon is supposed to have cut off the head of Charles I." This man is said to have confessed that he had £30 for his work, and that it was paid him (why, we know not) in half-crowns, within an hour after the axe fell. He took an orange, stuck with cloves, and a handkerchief, out of the king's pocket, when the body was removed from the scaffold. For the orange he was offered twenty shillings by a gentleman in Whitehall, but he refused the sum, and afterwards sold the orange for ten shillings, in Rosemary Lane. This Brandon was the son of Gregory Brandon, and claimed the headman's axe by inheritance. The first person he had beheaded was the Earl of Strafford; but, after all, there is still doubts as to who struck the death-blow at King Charles, and some say it was that Cornet Joyce who once arrested the king. There is as much, perhaps, to be said for Brandon, of Rosemary Lane, as any one.

From: 'Whitechapel', Old and New London: Volume 2 (1878), pp. 142-146
 
Ok - "they hanged him on his own scaffold"...except they didn't!
:) There was supposed to be a reference to Mr Heavy Blunt Instrument of Ankhmorpork in there but I fecked it up.
 
Revenge was had against the Regicides in the end though, even the chippie who built the scaffold was later hunted down and hanged.
Only because he, like the executioner, refused to take the "By appointment to King Charles I" off their letter heads!
 
The period 1641-53 was one of near constant warfare in Ireland, pre-dating and post-dating the Civil War. It is estimated that at least 200,000 and possibly as many as 600,000 people (according to the contemporary Parliamentarian Down Survey) died in Ireland in that time; this from a population of 1.5 million on the island. The deaths from disease and famine were enormous.

It is estimated that possibly up to 50,000 were sold as slaves - not indentured servants - in 'the Americas', primarily the Carribbean. Following the Cromwellian invasion, large numbers of prisoners were taken - these were for the most part Gaelic (native Irish) Catholic Royalists, and the Aran islands off the west coast of Ireland were in effect turned into large prison camps to accomodate them before transportation. Additionally, contemporary estimates are that approaching 50,000 men were exported into the Spanish and French services at the behest of the Cromwellian administration.

There was a fascinting documentary on the Redlegs of Barbados and St. Vincent and elsewhere on Irish television a year or so ago - it was astonishing to see the Irish surnames, and hear the accents of these people, who still 'look' Irish.
 
There was a fascinting documentary on the Redlegs of Barbados and St. Vincent and elsewhere on Irish television a year or so ago - it was astonishing to see the Irish surnames, and hear the accents of these people, who still 'look' Irish.
By jove you're right..........!

 
The period 1641-53 was one of near constant warfare in Ireland, pre-dating and post-dating the Civil War. It is estimated that at least 200,000 and possibly as many as 600,000 people (according to the contemporary Parliamentarian Down Survey) died in Ireland in that time; this from a population of 1.5 million on the island. The deaths from disease and famine were enormous.

It is estimated that possibly up to 50,000 were sold as slaves - not indentured servants - in 'the Americas', primarily the Carribbean. Following the Cromwellian invasion, large numbers of prisoners were taken - these were for the most part Gaelic (native Irish) Catholic Royalists, and the Aran islands off the west coast of Ireland were in effect turned into large prison camps to accomodate them before transportation. Additionally, contemporary estimates are that approaching 50,000 men were exported into the Spanish and French services at the behest of the Cromwellian administration.

There was a fascinting documentary on the Redlegs of Barbados and St. Vincent and elsewhere on Irish television a year or so ago - it was astonishing to see the Irish surnames, and hear the accents of these people, who still 'look' Irish.
Could the Melungeon of the US be considered part of this or is this too early?
 

MadJack

Old-Salt
I came across a tale of some several hundred Irish being sold to Prussia to work in the coal mines following the 1798 troubles. A few of them ended up in the French Empires 'Irish Legion' therby keeping the 'Wild Geese' saga flying a bit longer.
 
No evidence of Irish origins for the Melungeons, but then historical evidence about the origins of the Melungeons has always been hard to come by. Certainly possible.

I had heard of the 1798 Rebels who ended up in Napoleon's Irish Legion by way of the Prussian mines. Earlier, Irish troops in the Saxon service were captured by the Prussians and offered the choice of joining the Prussian Army. They became Infanterie Rgt. 27, and were later wiped out fighting in the churchyard at the Battle of Leuthen.
 

MadJack

Old-Salt
Thanks for that gallowglass. Time to get the books out again and do some more digging.
 

jim24

LE
Book Reviewer
In Michael Wood's TV program" Doomsday " in 1986, they discovered that the true Lord of the manor, the name of which I have long forgotten, was in fact a coloured bloke from Leicester, who's ancestor had been one of the people sent to St Kitts as a slave, at the end of the Civil War, and had inter married with the other black African slaves
 

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