England Rugby going down, down, down.....

On the note about changing the manager when the team are shoite, how many managers would Scotland and Wales have been through in the last 10 years?
 
Scotland's had three coaches

McGeehan - 2003, Williams 03-05 a disaster BTW and Hadden since then.

As to managers, Scotland has had only one, the great and larger than life Guy 'Guido' Richardson of 1RS fame. Top bloke.
 
Back on track, English rugby going down. I suspect they have not hit the bottom yet. Have they no pride, they were warned several times by the referee and still kept it up. In my opinion they need to get rid of the old men and get some new young blood in the team in their place
 

smudge5611

War Hero
As Murphy_Slaw and others have said,discipline is one of the main issues this team seems to have.

Danny Care should be kicked out of the squad for twelve months and informed that he will only be reconsidered then if he has a clean disciplinary record for that twelve months,(naturally form on the pitch also).

While penalties are being given away for fun,games will not be won.

There is also a question about leadership on the pitch. In my humble opinion,Borthwick is not up to the task of captain.There are prima donnas in the side that need to be put in their place by a firm captain on the pitch.

Jonno will get there,he needs time,but he needs individuals on the pitch to take responsibility for their own actions.

Rant over,I'll get my coat.
 
I thought Borthwick looked totally bewildered as captain against Ireland and wales the amount of time the refs in both games warned him to tell players about hands in the ruck must have run in to double figures and when did he speak to his team only after the players had been binned

Joe Worsley at this rate maybe the only Englishman on the lions tour there is at least 7-8 Irishmen that should be guaranteed a place

and what happened to O'Gara I usually enjoy watching him play he just didn't seam to be awake half the game
 
in_the_cheapseats said:
Cuddles said:
Delon Armitage ought to go with the Lions - I've been bigging him up for four years or so, since I saw him cut Bath to shreds...

As for which England players go to SA...I cannot exactly put up my hand and point to clear Scottish candidates. Chunk had played himself into contention, at least for the dirt-trackers, so that is sad. however stand fast Murray, who else? Paterson just defies selection - okay he is quick and kicks like a dream...but where do you play him and what is the opportunity cost if you do?

Evans Bros. too young, Blair out of form, Cusiter? Maybe...the rest of the squad really don't look candidates - not even Barclay.
Cuddles - I agree. I watched Murray destroy Northampton a couple of weeks ago and his performance against the Italians was more than a little impressive as well. He'll go. Other than that, well, I don't disagree that the cupboard is pretty bare.

However this thread is about England. Answers on a postcard to my original post please.
As he plays for Northampton, maybe you have Wasps in mind?

The Lions are struggling. A few Welsh players went down the pecking order last Friday night.
Playing in this Scottish team makes it difficult to shine.
I expect the English players at Wasps will fare best - simply as Edwards and McGeechan know and trust them. So expect Sackey, Vickery and Haskell to get the trip (maybe Tom Rees too) when in reality all are marginal calls.
 
sonofgreenfinch said:
in_the_cheapseats said:
Cuddles said:
Delon Armitage ought to go with the Lions - I've been bigging him up for four years or so, since I saw him cut Bath to shreds...

As for which England players go to SA...I cannot exactly put up my hand and point to clear Scottish candidates. Chunk had played himself into contention, at least for the dirt-trackers, so that is sad. however stand fast Murray, who else? Paterson just defies selection - okay he is quick and kicks like a dream...but where do you play him and what is the opportunity cost if you do?

Evans Bros. too young, Blair out of form, Cusiter? Maybe...the rest of the squad really don't look candidates - not even Barclay.
Cuddles - I agree. I watched Murray destroy Northampton a couple of weeks ago and his performance against the Italians was more than a little impressive as well. He'll go. Other than that, well, I don't disagree that the cupboard is pretty bare.

However this thread is about England. Answers on a postcard to my original post please.
As he plays for Northampton, maybe you have Wasps in mind?

The Lions are struggling. A few Welsh players went down the pecking order last Friday night.
Playing in this Scottish team makes it difficult to shine.
I expect the English players at Wasps will fare best - simply as Edwards and McGeechan know and trust them. So expect Sackey, Vickery and Haskell to get the trip (maybe Tom Rees too) when in reality all are marginal calls.
:oops: :oops: :oops: Yup - quite right. Getting carried away with myself. Thanks for the correction :D
 

overpromoted

Old-Salt
The thing that struck me with the Ireland game was how well England played despite the poor discipline. The talent exists in the squad, but I don't think the constant rotation of players helps. I also don't think our front five is, by historical standards, up to scratch. I also think we need to figure out a good centre partnership: Maybe a workhorse like Jordan Turner-Hall at 12 and someone with a more winger-like skillset (Tait?) at 13.
 
Drop Sackey, play Banahan. We wait for a large, running, strong back, one comes along, and we don't play him.

There is only so much a coach can do. If you look at what England were doing, it was a succession of pick and drives to open up the space, and then spinning it to the backs without kicking it. Basic Rugby.

Drop Borthwick, bring in Simon Shaw or Ben Kay to shore up the 2nd Row, and retain Flood at 10. Also, make Tindall the Captain. He's a pissed up thug with a big mouth, and all of us who have played the beautiful game know that those "characters" in the clubhouse make excellent Captains.
 
Ben Kay is so out of form that he is lucky to make Leicester's team, let alone England. He repeated his "through to score and dropped ball" demonstration on Sunday btw!

Let's face it, when you are playing with 14 men, giving a ten metre start or pot at goal advantage and delivering slow ball yourselves, well that isn't a good basis for dissecting individual's games or indeed the coach's game-plan. Is it?

So the first, second and third priority for England has to be discipline. Will Greenwood made a good point, as usual, on Sky. Under Sir Clive Woodward's regime, England did a drill, with a ref present, where they rucked about the paddock for a long period. If the ball went dead or to the other side's feet, there was no second dabble to win it back - Matt Dawson or whoever was at scrum half called "DEAD!" and the whole team stood up and defended, instead of wallowing on the deck or handling in the ruck to produce a penalty-against.

Individually the players are good enough, though Steve Borthwick seems weighed down by captaincy. It is the sum of the parts being greater than the whole which is not being delivered. I don't think johnno's lack of coaching experience at this or lower level matters. If you are good enough, then experience is merely a confidence factor not a qualification - there are many experienced coaches who lack the charisma and the innovation. Who said Andy Robinson? Stand up! Who was that?
 

Dwarf

LE
Cuddles said:
Individually the players are good enough, though Steve Borthwick seems weighed down by captaincy. It is the sum of the parts being greater than the whole which is not being delivered. I don't think johnno's lack of coaching experience at this or lower level matters. If you are good enough, then experience is merely a confidence factor not a qualification - there are many experienced coaches who lack the charisma and the innovation. Who said Andy Robinson? Stand up! Who was that?
Agree with that except I am not happy with Toby at Fly-half, he kicks away possession too much and is less than imaginative with the ball. Although against Ireland he did seem to be trying to maintain possession more. But I felt that Goode had a more expansive effect and was more influential.
 
Goode certainly has a more expansive waistline - what's that all about? I don't think either of them are really up to it. If pretty boy Cipriani would grow up a bit, he'd walk into the place. Shame he is an arrogant prima donna.

I'd suggest allowing Lewsey to give him another hiding and see if that improved things.
 

overpromoted

Old-Salt
The real trouble is that there's no continuity in the team. There must be a couple of dozen guys running out for Pemiership clubs now with 1-5 caps to their name. They get tried out whilst they're in vogue, and dropped like a used condom as soon as they have a poor performance. Just look at the merry-go-round we have with the halfbacks: Care, Ellis, Wigglesworth and Perry at 9 these last couple of years; and Goode, Cipriani, Flood, Wilkinson and Geraghty at 10. Is there any other national team in the world that's had such a rotation?
 
Bit of an over simplification old chap e.g. Ellis, Wilko , Cipriani have all had serious injuries; Geraghty had a long spell out too.
Perry and Wigglesworth found not to be up to the task.
Change of management / selector.
i.e. a lot of factors in play.
 

snozzer

Old-Salt
Johnson is probably working hard to recreate the atmosphere and discipline he himself came under when SCW was "The Man". What Johnson is lacking is a strong set of captains (yes set as you need a backs captain like Will Greenwood used to be) to take the leadership role on the pitch. Note when Borthwick was warned about infringement, the ref said "Do you want a word with your team" and he replied "No" and 30s later out comes a yellow card. Johnson and Dallalgio were both immense characters respected by the entire team, johnson in the start of his England career was not captain material he was groomed into the role and grew into it with expereince. Martin, who will be your teams leader?
 
A lot of this talk sounds like football talk. Lots of excuses for under-performing, lots of "let's give it more time" etc, etc.

We have people like Haskell with 14 caps for England and we are still talking of him "bedding in to his position". We have Cipriani who went out like a lion and has played like a pussy ever since. We still find excuses for Vickery for playing like someone new to the game.

Time was playing for your country meant everything. Now it's about salaries, endorsements and image. Clubs were proud to have a guy play for his country. Now they are more concerned with their own vested interests.

Transplant the names to the sad sacks who masquarade as our England football team and you wouldn't know which game you were talking about.

How could they do it to such a game as rugby. I never thought I'd see the day.

D_B
 
overpromoted said:
The real trouble is that there's no continuity in the team. There must be a couple of dozen guys running out for Pemiership clubs now with 1-5 caps to their name. They get tried out whilst they're in vogue, and dropped like a used condom as soon as they have a poor performance. Just look at the merry-go-round we have with the halfbacks: Care, Ellis, Wigglesworth and Perry at 9 these last couple of years; and Goode, Cipriani, Flood, Wilkinson and Geraghty at 10. Is there any other national team in the world that's had such a rotation?
And Paul Hodgson.

(France have rotated a lot more!)
 

Dwarf

LE
Ok, just got back from a wonderful afternoon aided by Mr Arthur Guiness.

That was not half bad. France blown away, though came back in the second half to do what they did against Wales last time. Except they didn't have a 34 point difference to overcome.

In The Cheapseats, ref not giving Johnno time, any words to be eaten?
:dance:
Looking forward to next week as I am sure the Porridge-Wogs will be up for it.
 

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