Encryption

Nehustan

On ROPS
On ROPs
#1
Hi there guys, I wondered if there were any 'math' types on the forum, that know a little about encryption software and the keys they use. Does the 'key' effect the algorithm i.e. is it encrypted using a 'fractal' so as to speak, or does the key just act as a password?

Thanks.
 

Nehustan

On ROPS
On ROPs
#3
Thanks TA_Sig, very rapid repsonse. I have just got hold of an app, and really it would be as simple as emailing the producer I guess, already had a look at wiki.

I just wondered to what degree files become encrypted, whether it fortifies the perimeter, or totally jumbles the content, I guess it must be the latter otherwise the file would be 'protected' rather than encrypted.
 
#4
Nehustan said:
Hi there guys, I wondered if there were any 'math' types on the forum, that know a little about encryption software and the keys they use. Does the 'key' effect the algorithm i.e. is it encrypted using a 'fractal' so as to speak, or does the key just act as a password?

Thanks.
I'm mathematcian (though not a specialist in encryption). I refer you to the article

http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/news/story/0,,1430332,00.html

Modern encryption relies on the strange property that multiplying prime numbers is relatively easy (7 x 13 = ?), but working out what two prime numbers multiply together to give a certain result is much harder (? x ? = 323). Indeed, with very large numbers it becomes virtually impossible to solve such problems, and this leads to effectively unbreakable codes.
...
And if that still isn't enough, and you want to have a direct personal financial benefit, then primes can deliver again. RSA, an encryption corporation in the United States, offers $20,000 to anybody who can work out which two primes multiply together to give:

31074182404900437213507500358885679300373460228427
275457201619488232064405180815045563468296717232
867824379162728380334154710731085019195485290073
37724822783525742386454014691736602477652346609.
 
#5
http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/news/story/0,,1430332,00.html

Modern encryption relies on the strange property that multiplying prime numbers is relatively easy (7 x 13 = ?), but working out what two prime numbers multiply together to give a certain result is much harder (? x ? = 323). Indeed, with very large numbers it becomes virtually impossible to solve such problems, and this leads to effectively unbreakable codes.
...
And if that still isn't enough, and you want to have a direct personal financial benefit, then primes can deliver again. RSA, an encryption corporation in the United States, offers $20,000 to anybody who can work out which two primes multiply together to give:

31074182404900437213507500358885679300373460228427
275457201619488232064405180815045563468296717232
867824379162728380334154710731085019195485290073
37724822783525742386454014691736602477652346609.
This is only one form of encryption known as asymmetric or public-key encryption. RSA requires 2 keys generated from 2 large primes as described above but due to the size of the numbers involved it is too slow for simple file encryption. Symmetric algorithms use a single key which is combined with sequential blocks of data from the file in any number of ways (depending on the algorithm) in order to mask the content.
 

Nehustan

On ROPS
On ROPs
#6
I actually chatted with someone in our IT dept today about algorithms and the way they reorganise/encrypt data, very interesting.

Thanks for you post tho' wowbagger. He actually directed me to the 'best' piece of software for the job in his opinion (PGP), which encrypts using RSA with up to 4096-bit keys With public and private keys, and DSA using 1024-bit key only. This is very cool stuff, which I know a little more about than yesterday.
 
#7
PGP is a hybrid: It uses a symmetric key to encrypt the data, and PKE (Public Key Encryption) to encrypt the symmetric key. symmetric encryption algs tend to be faster than PKE by a ratio ~ 1000:1 so you get the speed from one and the convenience of PKE which removes key distro problems. It's a simple principle and you can insert your favorite PKE alg and symmetic alg and cook your own.

There is a far superior algorithm which has been developed recently, namely ROT13 :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROT13

also worth a look.
 

Nehustan

On ROPS
On ROPs
#8
Funny sod....I actually used ROT13 some years ago in combination with the Runic futhark, like it says not really an encryption system as much as as a device to avoid prying eyes :lol:

[align=center]AHBH AChD[/align]
 
F

fozzy

Guest
#9
Nehustan said:
Funny sod....I actually used ROT13 some years ago in combination with the Runic futhark, like it says not really an encryption system as much as as a device to avoid prying eyes :lol:

[align=center]AHBH AChD[/align]
Being a geek 1st class with oak leaf cluster, I recommend "the book they tried to ban" which is the standard reference on this subject - "Applied Cryptography" by Bruce Schneier.
http://www.schneier.com/book-applied.html

Its on my bookshelf, so help me
 
#11
fozzy said:
Nehustan said:
Funny sod....I actually used ROT13 some years ago in combination with the Runic futhark, like it says not really an encryption system as much as as a device to avoid prying eyes :lol:

[align=center]AHBH AChD[/align]
Being a geek 1st class with oak leaf cluster, I recommend "the book they tried to ban" which is the standard reference on this subject - "Applied Cryptography" by Bruce Schneier.
http://www.schneier.com/book-applied.html

Its on my bookshelf, so help me
Ditto! :oops:
 

Nehustan

On ROPS
On ROPs
#12
well I have a couple of tank tops...maybe a copy is all I need to complete my geek chic :wink:

(geek chic complete - ordered from amazon!!! Now if I don't have women hanging off me at parties I want my money back!!!! Guess I could always try the friendly bacteria line...it works on the TV 8O )
 
#13
Thanks for you post tho' wowbagger. He actually directed me to the 'best' piece of software for the job in his opinion (PGP), which encrypts using RSA with up to 4096-bit keys With public and private keys, and DSA using 1024-bit key only. This is very cool stuff, which I know a little more about than yesterday.
Yes, but did you know they are," Provably" crackable, given time and computational resources. Why do you think the key length gets longer and longer?

128-bit, 4096-bit, 1024-bit does not equal more secure. Just takes longer to crack with a given set of resources. Here though, Moors law and the invention of technologies like, distributed computing outstrip the use of current encryption algorithms.

This is the fundamental problem with all, currently, used computer encryption algorithms. (At least those we mortals know about)
 
E

error_unknown

Guest
#15
If you want a non-geek friendly read then try Simon Sharma's "The Code Book" it details loads of stuff from how the Egyptian hyroglyphs were decyphered, how the Poles cracked the early Enigma codes and how a Brit invented computer encryption but couldn't tell anyone (or patent it) at the time...a good read and not (too) technical.
 
#16
jinxy said:
Thanks for you post tho' wowbagger. He actually directed me to the 'best' piece of software for the job in his opinion (PGP), which encrypts using RSA with up to 4096-bit keys With public and private keys, and DSA using 1024-bit key only. This is very cool stuff, which I know a little more about than yesterday.
Yes, but did you know they are," Provably" crackable, given time and computational resources. Why do you think the key length gets longer and longer?

128-bit, 4096-bit, 1024-bit does not equal more secure. Just takes longer to crack with a given set of resources. Here though, Moors law and the invention of technologies like, distributed computing outstrip the use of current encryption algorithms.

This is the fundamental problem with all, currently, used computer encryption algorithms. (At least those we mortals know about)
Actually a longer key length does make it more secure. To say some algorithms are provably crackable is a bit fantastical. For example, to crack an AES encrypted text by brute force, would take to beyond the end of the universe and there probably isn't enough energy to sustain the computer that would be required (assuming there is no shortcut method). However, if I was to use my quantum computer... :twisted:
RSA is a different matter. http://www.newscientist.com/channel/fundamentals/mg18725112.000 This article indicates that there probably exists a "fast" factoring algorithm i.e. it just became a whole lot less secure.
 
#17
CRmeansCeilingReached said:
honestly, and you dark siders wonder why we take the p*ss... ;)
Actually, I have never wondered why you take the p*ss.... I've always fully realised how bad some of the dark side have presented themselves in public....
 
#18
Actually a longer key length does make it more secure. To say some algorithms are provably crackable is a bit fantastical.
It had been along day, I didn’t make my point very well, you are correct.

However, this article makes my point and I should have posted it last night.

<snip>
from here: http://www.it-director.com/article.php?articleid=12296
Strange as it may seem (if you never studied Mathematics) there are mathematical relations that can be used to create encryption that can be proved to be unbreakable. The real problem is that we founded the early encryption on a technique that wasn’t provably unbreakable.

This is why a number of people are nervous about a possible solution to the RH.
 
#19
jinxy said:
Actually a longer key length does make it more secure. To say some algorithms are provably crackable is a bit fantastical.
It had been along day, I didn’t make my point very well, you are correct.

However, this article makes my point and I should have posted it last night.

<snip>
from here: http://www.it-director.com/article.php?articleid=12296
Strange as it may seem (if you never studied Mathematics) there are mathematical relations that can be used to create encryption that can be proved to be unbreakable. The real problem is that we founded the early encryption on a technique that wasn’t provably unbreakable.

This is why a number of people are nervous about a possible solution to the RH.
True, there are provably unbreakable cyphers, such as the one-time pad, but their infeasibility precludes their use in real life.
A solution to RH would render most (if not all) public key encryption systems useless but would not affect the majority of symmetric cyphers (except, perhaps those which use finite field arithmetic such as AES). That would leave us with the age-old key distribution problem. Solution?...
Roll on quantum cryptography! 8)


Yes, yes I am a nerd.
 

Nehustan

On ROPS
On ROPs
#20
I think it was the great 80's philosopher Huey Lewis with his compadres who coined the famous axiom....

'It's hip to be square'

;)
 

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