Effective ranges of individual weapons

Who knows most about effective ranges?

  • TINWALT

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    1
#1
On another forum, a certain TINWALT character has been making outrageous claims, claiming that he knows better than serving and ex-soldiers as to various small-arms and infantary-related topics.

The relevant claims are as follows:

*Assault rifles (e.g. SA-80) are not effective at 600m (he maintains this even when the PAMS are quoted at him), and that includes SECTION FIRE.
*Assault rifles are carbines.
*450-500m is the maximum range at which an assault rifle has both the energy and accuracy to kill with a single round.
*Assault rifles are not used for section fire at 600m in any army in the world. Apparently we're are confusing assault rifles with MG's (and cannon, but he edited this out).
*There's a horrendous bullet drop at 600m in an assault rifle and you'd struggle to raise the barrel enough to his someone (pg. 20 for this little gem).
*The M16 has been replaced (pg. 18 ).

The relevant thread is this:
http://www.ww2incolor.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=60&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 but it takes a good few pages for the real gems to shine through. There's some other nonsense spoken which gets put to bed quickly, and it's only Tinwalt that maintains his ridiculous position.


Another prize quote:

Think about that. If the range of the weapon with accuracy is 500m, it is not going to be very accurate at 600m. Not at all accurate. If it is accurate to within 1/5 meter at 500m, imagine 600m. Would it be accurate to within 1/2 meter? 1 meter? That is uttely worthless accuracy my friend.
Apparently he knows better than the British Army small-arms doctrine (PAM 2 isn't it?), and apparently he's probably fired many times more rounds than Cuts (although he seems to have edited this comment out also).

Oh, and Tinwalt's been invited here to play.

*ahem*

SECTION!
600!
ENEMY IN THE OPEN!
RAPID... FIRE!
 
#2
Welcome aboard IRONINGMAN
You will ntoice with a Membership of nearly 9,000 this forum is a bit larger than WW2incolor. :wink:

But dont worry quite a few of the people here have seen you other posts, so they know what you are about!
Try and stay out of the naafi and other threads, antagonising everyone might be a bit, Messy.

Try to retain some dignity and remember you are a guest! :lol:

In your own time carry on..................... :)
 
#3
A pewter hip flask (when thrown) has an effective range of around fifteen feet. As lairdx found out when Mrs lairdx got a bit grumpy about her secret supply of salt and vinegar crisps being stolen.
 
#4
stoatman said:
On another forum, a certain TINWALT character has been making outrageous claims, claiming that he knows better than serving and ex-soldiers as to various small-arms and infantary-related topics.

The relevant claims are as follows:

*Assault rifles (e.g. SA-80) are not effective at 600m (he maintains this even when the PAMS are quoted at him), and that includes SECTION FIRE.
*Assault rifles are carbines.
*450-500m is the maximum range at which an assault rifle has both the energy and accuracy to kill with a single round.
*Assault rifles are not used for section fire at 600m in any army in the world. Apparently we're are confusing assault rifles with MG's (and cannon, but he edited this out).
*There's a horrendous bullet drop at 600m in an assault rifle and you'd struggle to raise the barrel enough to his someone (pg. 20 for this little gem).
*The M16 has been replaced (pg. 18 ).

The relevant thread is this:
http://www.ww2incolor.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=60&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 but it takes a good few pages for the real gems to shine through. There's some other nonsense spoken which gets put to bed quickly, and it's only Tinwalt that maintains his ridiculous position.


Another prize quote:

Think about that. If the range of the weapon with accuracy is 500m, it is not going to be very accurate at 600m. Not at all accurate. If it is accurate to within 1/5 meter at 500m, imagine 600m. Would it be accurate to within 1/2 meter? 1 meter? That is uttely worthless accuracy my friend.
Apparently he knows better than the British Army small-arms doctrine (PAM 2 isn't it?), and apparently he's probably fired many times more rounds than Cuts (although he seems to have edited this comment out also).

Oh, and Tinwalt's been invited here to play.

*ahem*

SECTION!
600!
ENEMY IN THE OPEN!
RAPID... FIRE!
Is this guy for real? Pehaps he could attend SCBC (And pass it) then quote what the hell he likes. Sounds like a Walt. Why would you engage the enemy with rapid fire at 600?

tit

Edit for typos, bad gramma, and spelling
 
#5
*ahem* that last thing was me, just to give an example of a fire order including 600m, and to tell everyone to give it to him rapid.

I could have put "DELIBERATE", but that's no fun!
 
#6
READY READY WAIT

Give IRONINGMAN time to register and post,

We must be sporting about this after all, give the hare time to get ahead of the hounds and all!

oh and it is useful to quote him in your posts he does amend comments behind himself,

(He removed "cannon" from his last post which was very annoying! was quite looking forward to seeing a 30Mil cannon in the infantry armoury!)
 
#7
Stoatman you are forgiven. 22:00 showing correct Fire control orders! :)

*450-500m is the maximum range at which an assault rifle has both the energy and accuracy to kill with a single round.
P1ss, talking out of his fart pipe.

*Assault rifles are carbines
Isn't a carbine A Long barreled weapon that can fire a pistol or short cartridge? Or a short rifle used by horse mounted cav? Or an old term that has no meaning today? I can't ever remember refering to the IW as a carbine.

Just stick to playing games fellas, just games....
 
#8
I once got into a huge row in a bar in Marseille, with an alpine type who swore that his bog standard FAMAS was accurate out to a mile. It all got a bit tiresome when he started threatening me, so I threw him in the oggin. :lol:

Might is ALWAYS right! :wink:
 
#9
600m my arrse I can barely see the fig11 at 300 even with a SUSAT
 
#10
That's cos you're blind, Gg!

I've knocked them down at 500 yds with a bolt-action rifle & open sights (post & U-notch jobbies) - 6 (or was it 8?) hits out of 10 in 1 minute, with a reload using a charger.
 
#11
Greengrass said:
600m my arrse I can barely see the fig11 at 300 even with a SUSAT
It's a bad workman.....

A couple of years ago I was trying to sort out some quick zeroing for a unit shooting team; got the rifles sorted, then moved back to 600m on the AMS range to get the LSWs some confidence with the wind.

Decided to give the rifles a chance to try their hand at 600m, as a bit of interest. By way of a demo, fired a quick ten rounds with an unzeroed rifle; the first three to sight in and start hitting the target (isn't AMS wonderful, it's just like tracer) and then managed to put the next seven onto the fig.11

As a more realistic example of the average shooter, the team-members (all UOTC Officer Cadets with limited experience firing the L85) were reliably "suppressing" at 600m; most were hitting every couple of rounds at 600m.

So, yes, the rifle is accurate. If you've actually got the time and concentration to aim carefully. And you can actually identify or indicate a target 600m away. And the target is considerate enough not to move during the the quarter-second of reaction time between "deciding to fire" and "pulling the trigger", or three-quarters of a second time of flight between your rifle going bnag and the bullet reaching the target.....
 
#13
As for the 5.56 not being accurate, a recruit I was coaching this weekend managed a 50mm group with 20 rounds at 100M prone with iron sights 8O
Only his second day on the ranges. In theory this guy would have a 300mm group at 600M. He did hit every target that day :D Due to my excellent coaching of course :wink:
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#14
WhiteHorse said:
As for the 5.56 not being accurate, a recruit I was coaching this weekend managed a 50mm group with 20 rounds at 100M prone with iron sights 8O
Only his second day on the ranges. In theory this guy would have a 300mm group at 600M. He did hit every target that day D Due to my excellent coaching of course wink
556 is a round capable of outstanding accurracy, I have fired at 500yds on etr ranges and dropped fig 12s. I use a Ruger 77mk2 heavy barrel for foxing with 55 grain bullets due to the twist rate being unsuitable for anything heavier and yet with a zero at 100 will still kill charlie out to 300 without aiming off. I also have found that for out of the box accurracy the Ruger is outstanding and was closely chased by my old L85A1. Pinpoint accurrate. Still I preferred my LMG!
 
#15
Once hit a fig12 at 600m .Ruined the effect somewhat as it was on a section shoot after yelling" watch my tracer " my next words were "bloody hell i hit it". if a mediocre stab can hit at 600m I think it proves the point .
 
#16
SUSAT is calibrated to 800m on the rear drum, but judging the wind and the level of accuracy required at that range it is an exercise in futility.
The light 5.56 round is easily blown off target and gusting winds will have your group at that range like a mad woman’s shit. At 25m if you are one inch out by the time you get back to 800m you would be out by 24 inches and that’s before the wind has its effect, you might be lucky and have the wind blow the round back on to the target lol.

These feats of shooting are completely doable but not by your average soldier whom only shoots an APWT once per year.

The quality of the ammo (Compared to hand loaded) is enough to throw it out by 1inch at 100m

You would want an anemometer and a laser range finder just for starts, even the anemometer would only tell you the wind at one point on the range it could vary vastly from one end of an 800m range to the other.

You want a good 7.62 sniper rifle with good optics for deliberate shooting at those ranges.

Dave
 
#17
This thread is intended for disproving the idiot that is Ironingman!

Please do not undermine the hard work done elsewhere!
Practical or not, Ironingman states that no force in the world would even train to engage at over 400 meters or such!

There is plenty of time to educate him, jsut wait til he gets here before attacking!
 
#18
i'm sorry i had to voe for tinwalt he just knows so much more than me.
 
#19
Lasalle said:
Ok - I'm not an infanteer. But here goes......The SA80 is a rifle, not an assault rifle.
Err, sorry mate, but it is - it's a select-fire rifle firing an intermediate cartridge. And that's the definition of an assault rifle
 
#20
Devlishdave:

Agreed re. 800m with 5.56mm - I wouldn't attempt it except on a still day. Wind judging is a skill which is learned though - I used to regularly compete at 1000yds with 7.62mm - one misjudged wind change & you can hit a few targets down on a windy day...

If you're 1" out at 25m, you've got to learn to shoot, cos you'll be missing a fig. 12 at 300m at that rate. You should be shooting clover-leaf groups at 25m.

The point of this thread was to state that according to PAM2 section fire is carried out back to 600m, whereas Tinwalt claims that no army in the world does this EVER.
 

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