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EDUCATION : The word's "Soldier"

#1
So, I'm doing a bit of stuff around the house and I'm wearing a battered old green wooly pully and I go to the corner shop, there's a 10 year old boy in there getting sweets.
He looks at me, his eyes widen in wonder and he says
" are you a- a- a... army man?"

I said... "do you mean "soldier"?" and he replies "er.... er.... yeah" talking a bit to him this kid wasn't stupid but didn't know what "soldier" (or "sailor" for that matter) meant.
To his credit he did say my "top" was "cool" (!!!)

Came back and ranted to my wife about "what kids were being taught in schools by PC teachers that want to keep them ignorant about the armed forces" she told me to calm down.
 

Unknown_Quantity

War Hero
Moderator
#2
When doing history in school I always found it quite disappointing that we would spend a term looking at how Hitler came to power and the League of Nations but completely ignored the events that led to, or followed both.

How and where 6 million died obviously isn't that important to this country. Why isn't even that important because as I remember it we were taught that the nazi's were really mean, then a war happened.

Nothing at all was taught about the Korean war or the falklands war (15 yrs on by that point). The beginning of the cold war was covered but not much else.

I could try blaming new labour, but that would be wrong because most of my education was delivered under a conservative government. :evil:
 
#4
You'll find that schools are still run by left-wing socialists, even under tory governments, who try to hide our history and blame us for the worlds woes. Ever since leaving school, I have learnt more about the history of our country than those left-wing t@ssers ever did or will acknowledge :roll:
 
#5
There are two fundamental problems;

1. The vast majority of school teachers do not have sufficiently broad or detailed knowledge (of lots of things outside their immediate subjet area - and in the case of primary ed - probably not even that) or interest in the areas you are talking about to discuss it on a sensible level. [Plenty of personal and anecdotal evidence to back this up when/if the whinges arrive.]

2. The whole focus, rightly or wrongly, of the educational environment is on the attainment of examination grades rather than the education of the student. Remember what Einsein said, 'education is that which remains when you have forgotten what you were taught in school'. There simply is not time, especially if a teacher is being professional in terms of acheiving their pupils' highest possible exam results to digress at length (and it would need to be at length) on the topics which the majority of arrsers would wish. History classes as with any other are bound by the strict requirements to cover the examination specification (what used to be called the syllabus until someone found out that that word was Latin!).

Sad but true. It MIGHT change with the advent of a UK Baccaleaureat but bearing in mind points 1. and 2., probably not. Honestly, the only way around what you're talking about is the reintroduction of national service - that way the kids will see people around in uniform and the adults will have the basic knowledge to impart in the first place. That might have some budgetary implications though...
 
#6
When my son was small I also referred to soldiers as "army men". It enabled me to get across that men and women who work within the army do not spend all day every day doing the "fun" stuff which appeals so strongly to a little boy but also have more mundane tasks as part of their daily lives.

To an idolising youngster the term "soldier" has a slightly misleading magic :wink:
 
#7
A while back Niece asks "Auntie can you help me with an assignment about the war?"

Which war?

The one with the Germans.

Yes, well First or Second World War?

How do you mean?

Well, 1914-1918 or 1939-1945

You mean there were TWO!!!?

Ho hum.
 
#8
"Measuring intelligence by examination result is like measuring digestion by t*rd length"

A quote atributed to Churchill who famously only got his name right at one exam. Can't quite see the old boy saying that though.

The "empire guilt" that permeates much of the education establishment can be seen in the way in which history is taught.

I remember talking to one of the old boys at a college do and he told me what it was like after the WWII - he was a fleet air arm pilot. All the guys who had deffered their degrees to fight all came back and took places in the years following. Already there were those who had not..........
 
#9
Some of the posts have reminded me of when our daughter was 14 and in a state school we went to see her head as we were not happy that it appeared the bright kids were being left to themsleves while the others got all the attention...
I gave an example I said to the head teacher
" the other day I asked our daugther who was on what side in WW2?"

It took half hour of questions such as "Ok were we on the same side as Japan?" to slowly painfully establish who did what....

the head teacher replied (remember we are talking about a 14 year old's knowledge here...)
"DO YOU REALLY EXPECT SUCH AN IN DEPTH KNOWLEDGE OF HISTORY AT HER AGE? THAT'S VERY ADVANCED"

Anyway we cancelled the house move and stuck her in a private school...
Ok the first week she comes home and cried " there are girls cleverer than me"... but it still remains the best money we have ever spent

The girl's knowledge ofthe Napoleonic wars is a cause for concern NOW!!!
 
#10
LostBoss said:
"Measuring intelligence by examination result is like measuring digestion by t*rd length"

A quote atributed to Churchill who famously only got his name right at one exam. Can't quite see the old boy saying that though.
Admittedly, but that is the criterion by which education (rather than just pure intelligence) is measured and not just by schools/the government but by employers as well: which is reasonably important for the future of the students (oh and the teachers and schools under the current regime) if no-one else.

More targets based planning from Neu Arbeit. Now, if it was effects based the system might focus on different ends.
 
#11
My English teacher, was my "favourite", top bloke, played Rugby, drove a motor bike, listened to the Small Faces and a load of Motown. I did always suspected him of being a bit of a "lefty" though, which in my eyes at the time was almost a sure indication of treason.

Anyway, he was apt to having to having these "discussions" it involved us not working and him having a fly smoke so everybody was up for it. I remember one about "Threads" the BBC nuke Docudrama which had been on telly the night before. He took a fairly extreme pro-CND, anti defence and generally stereotypical left-wing view of the time. It developed into a right old barney and possibly went slightly beyond the acceptable Teacher/pupil exchange. BB was asked to remain after class......

When everyone else had left, BB the trembling schoolboy awaiting a beating (they still did that then). He told me that he'd agreed with virtually every point I'd made, but, he agreed with Churchill... That one should be Liberal when young and Conservative when older, and if he didn't steer me and some of my cohorts in a liberal direction we were likely to end up somewhere to the far right of Adolf.... He was right you know.

Totally off topic. So sue me.
 
#12
To quote a famous American :

" I never let school stand in the way of my education"

Beyond learning how to read and write.. School is for playing sports at recess.. the ' education ' is learned elsewhere...
 
#13
I learnt more history, geography and usefull stuff in two years of General Studies lessons than the previous ten years of formal stuff. We had a teacher who would encourage you to go out and learn stuff for yourself, we'd have lessons in the Library and huge free-for-all debates. In regular lessons we just spent time going over the same subjects over and over again with the aim of cramming us for exams.
 
#14
The Doris has a degree in history but knows sod all outside of 'Gladstone & Disraelli' and the causes of WW1 (she knows nothing about the actual war itself). And she's shite on anything earlier than about 1890 (Didn't even know that Zulu was a true story). So is she educated or not? B*ggered if I know.
 
E

error_unknown

Guest
#15
fas_et_gloria said:
There are two fundamental problems;

1. The vast majority of school teachers do not have sufficiently broad or detailed knowledge (of lots of things outside their immediate subjet area - and in the case of primary ed - probably not even that) or interest in the areas you are talking about to discuss it on a sensible level. [Plenty of personal and anecdotal evidence to back this up when/if the whinges arrive.]

2. The whole focus, rightly or wrongly, of the educational environment is on the attainment of examination grades rather than the education of the student. Remember what Einsein said, 'education is that which remains when you have forgotten what you were taught in school'. There simply is not time, especially if a teacher is being professional in terms of acheiving their pupils' highest possible exam results to digress at length (and it would need to be at length) on the topics which the majority of arrsers would wish. History classes as with any other are bound by the strict requirements to cover the examination specification (what used to be called the syllabus until someone found out that that word was Latin!).

Sad but true. It MIGHT change with the advent of a UK Baccaleaureat but bearing in mind points 1. and 2., probably not. Honestly, the only way around what you're talking about is the reintroduction of national service - that way the kids will see people around in uniform and the adults will have the basic knowledge to impart in the first place. That might have some budgetary implications though...
Being alongside teachers in a fairly reasonable state comp, nail on the head time. Yes and double yes to yr points.

Teachers mostly are not leftys (or anything at all as far as I can tell) they are sausage technicians and chav tamers.

Mon Marashel did the right thing - get yr kids into private ed pronto.
 
#16
I remember being taught about WW1 at school. In one lesson Archduke Ferdinand got shot. In the next lesson there was the Treaty of Versailles. When I mentioned that I thought we might have overlooked something in the interim I was told in shocked tones that "only the boys' schools do that".

I was not amused.

Part of the problem with teaching history in school now is

a) we have to pretend all our previous enemies are now our dearest friends so much has to be left out to avoid embarrassment

b) many schools are terrified of taking kids on school trips so they never get the hands on feel of history and no flame of enthusiasm for the subject is ever lit.

Something like 40% of women under the age of 30 have never even heard of Auschwitz.

I don't have much time for the state child-minding service as a means of gaining an education. The best you can hope for is a decent social life and a sense of routine.
 
#17
Personally I blame the lack of good war -comics for the appalling lack of historical awareness amongst the nation's youth. I learnt a great deal about the Wars as a schoolboy in the '60's from the old "Battle Picture Library" and the like. I certainly knew who all the main protagonists were and whose side they were on. It helped with my european languages too, the facility to speak good simple German (as in "Achtung Spitfeuer" "Englisher Pig-Dog" and "Got in Himmel" ) came in very useful when I found myselg in BAOR a few years later, usually at the Bratty-stall at Two in the morning.On a more serious note, it's not just kids who lack an understanding of the Forces. How often do you hear some moron on the Telly refer to a Royal Navy warship as "the HMS Ark Royal" or similar and hsve you ever noticed how everyone in the Army is now an "Officer". They have no concept of Service ranks and think we're like the Police where everybody is indeed a Police Officer What plane do these people live on? how can they be so ignorant of what was general knowledge a few years ago?
 
#18
There's yet another side to this of course... the contempt for the past the new order running this country shows itself up in the destruction of traditions for no other reason than that they are traditions and it's always done under the worthwhile banner of "modernisation..."

Of course we'd all like "a modern 21st century army or navy or airforce" but the contempt shown for traditions many of which do have a purpose is well.... stupid

Ok ARRSE members.... it's dream world ,we have the chance to set the curriculum what should kids learn about the British armed forces' history?

I'll start: by 16 they should know: the date, the story (how we won /lost) and the meaning of:
Trafalgar , Waterloo , the Somme , battle of France, battle of Britain
Dunkirk, Taranto, Singapore, Alamein, Strategic Bombing in WW2, D Day, Falklands, Iraq (Act 1)
 
#20
"Army man" is probably less PC than "soldier". Come on, you know how these wooly liberals work, they'd probably demand "army person of non-specific gender" at the very least...

As for the education comments, I personally am not surprised that a 14-y-o was not expected to know about either world war - because they are taught that in GCSE courses. Beforehand it`s all 1066 and castles and basic stuff.

It is true that history does tend to just consist of the 20th and late 19th century. This is partly because schools are encouraged to teach children about dictators, the Holocaust, and the world wars, leaving little time for other periods.

More serious is the fact that children can give up history at 14, without ever having studied Hitler and Haig.

btw, 2young2die, Gladstone and Disraeli were prime ministers in Victoria`s reign - before 1890.
 

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