Edited

adastra

War Hero
Dontdreamit said:
At the end of the day - if national agencies, with all their ISTAR and experience cannot effectively predict where the next attack is going to come from - what is a New York Police Officer going to bring to the table?
Don't let reality stand in the way of what sounds like an excellent plot for the next Bruce Willis movie. Perhaps we could even suggest that the bad guys had WMD ready for use within 45 minute.?

Then again, who would ever believe that?

PS: Not to forget what a great job the National Agencies have done in the past:

Hitler Invades Poland
Hitler Invades Holland ( you might like to Google the "Venlo Incident")
Argie Invades Falklands
Saddam Invades Kuwait
 

Glad_its_all_over

ADC
Book Reviewer
Dontdreamit said:
Glad_its_all_over said:
Police agencies have a specific remit to protect the public - note the NYPD motto "Protect and Serve". Some other departments have a remit to protect the state.

Cops have absolute operational primacy. They can do pretty much what they want to protect the public (and carry the can for it afterwards, of course). OGDs and MoD have no executive authority at all (although MoD can be handed it under certain circumstances).
Fair point, but does that NYPD remit extend to covert humint sources abroad? If the unit is indeed funded by the City of New York, I can imagine those citizens might be more inclined to see more bobbies on the beat that Jack Bauers running around London and Singapore trying to be spies.

At the end of the day - if national agencies, with all their ISTAR and experience cannot effectively predict where the next attack is going to come from - what is a New York Police Officer going to bring to the table?
I suspect one of the reasons a police force might set up its own operation would be a massive dissatisfaction with the service they were getting from the agencies, various. The NYPD is a ferociously capable outfit and is quite clear on who it works for - the Mayor, the Five Boroughs and the people of New York City. I imagine Bloomberg and the Commissioner have taken the view that the interests of the citizens of New York will be best served by their setting up this sort of thing.

I've met a couple of their analysts at conferences and was very impressed, incidentally.
 

adastra

War Hero
NYPD: Capability led? Wait till you look inside their compound at Bagram AFB!
The SOF wing of the New York Air National Guard would put most of Odiham to shame. There is rumoured to be a bunker on the far side of Albany International where NYPD air wing fly MQ1P Warriors!

The "other" lot are more Patagoina than North Face, which does show them up a bit in Finsbury Park Mosque . :wink:
 
Instead of asking "Why would the NYPD set up their own Intelligence/Counter-Terrorism Unit?" a more pertinant question might be "Why WOULD'NT they?"

Back in '99, an Al Queda terrorist attempted to inflitrate a load of explosives by car. His target was a major US airport. He was stopped not by the FBI, CIA or No Such Agency - but by a switched-on Customs Officer who noticed the bad guy was sweating heavily on a cold night in December.

On 9/11 the Federal Law Enforcement and Intelligence Agencies were not so much caught with their pants down as bent over and anally raped by Al Queda.

So if the NYPD want to set up their own Spooks, more power to them.
 
CRmeansCeilingReached said:
Dontdreamit said:
Glad_its_all_over said:
Dontdreamit said:
Would we evacuate Canary Wharf on Special Branch advice without SIS/SS/GCHQ corroboration?
Of course we would, Police = operational primacy.
Operational Primacy?

No according to the Joint Intelligence Commitee

etc
police primacy is pretty basic stuff dontdreamit. what DO they cover on the A3 nowadays :)
I think you may find that the duty Inspector at Limehouse would probably take a view on all this and based on his "advice" from a Detective Ggt from the counter terrorist command.................. If CTC were that convinced that there was a threat they would run with it.

Trotsky
 
Dontdreamit said:
Werewolf said:
Instead of asking "Why would the NYPD set up their own Intelligence/Counter-Terrorism Unit?" a more pertinant question might be "Why WOULD'NT they?"

Back in '99, an Al Queda terrorist attempted to inflitrate a load of explosives by car. His target was a major US airport. He was stopped not by the FBI, CIA or No Such Agency - but by a switched-on Customs Officer who noticed the bad guy was sweating heavily on a cold night in December.

On 9/11 the Federal Law Enforcement and Intelligence Agencies were not so much caught with their pants down as bent over and anally raped by Al Queda.

So if the NYPD want to set up their own Spooks, more power to them.
That's not really the same thing though is it? Customs are a National agency under the Dep Homeland Sec.

However, how would SIS feel if they were doing the sneaky beaky stuff in downtown Kabul when lo and behold... they bump into Dave the London Metropolitan police officer 'making contact' with the locals...

It really is the same equivalent.
I venture to suggest that Customs Officers have more in common with NYPD beat cops than CIA Spooks or FBI Special Agents. The Customs Officer who stopped the wannabe-suicide bomber was uniformed, not Secret Squirrel.

IIRC, some Met. Officers have served in Afghanistan with various TA Units.

I think the important thing to remember is that nobody - Spooks, Plods or Military - is perfect. If the NYPD, or indeed anyone else, can provide well-trained Operators, then that means more boots on the ground. And more chance of stopping the bad guys.
 
I'm puzzled by your attitude to this DDI. I can't see anything in the article that suggests that definitely confirms they are trying to infringe on the National Agencies turf.Surely the posting of staff you highlighted was of liaison officers to help link the NYPDs resources (their linguists and analysts) to other agencies who may have information that relates to NY but will probably not have the resources to pursue it themselves even if they considered it more of a priority than stuff that threatened them.

Any sizable LEA worth its salt has some intelligence function these days for criminal work anyway so I can't see where you think they are radically stepping off their turf. Due to the sensitive nature and relative urgency of the info handled it would make sense to set up a seperate unit to keep it more secure and focus the assigned resources on it exclusively.
 
I can testify that indeed NYPD are operating information collection ops in numerous countries - here is photographic evidence of a recruitment pitch in an halal patisserie in Bradford

http://flickr.com/photos/jenspetersen /245077967/ :lol:

Oooops forgot to say - the claims in the book are bollox !

TRUST ME I KNOW :wink: :wink:
 
Dontdreamit said:
Does this now mean that the Police Force of every major city in the US has the right to send undercover agents abroad?

The spy industry is about to get a little crowded. DC, LA, Baltimore, Dallas, Detroit, san Fran, Chicago... hell we could even have a mormon chapter from Salt Lake City tapping up Christians....

Am I the only one that cannot see the dangerous precedent being set by this. New York CITY Police Department have no jurisdiction outside of their own borough. They clearly are not working out of embassies so what legal rights do they have if they are captured abroad practising espionage/developing assests?

We invest a great deal of trust, scrutiny and oversight into our national organisations and the incumbent government are responsible for their actions. If a terrorist act occured within NYC would the NYPD shoulder the blame?

This is madness. They are a police force who only reserve the right to arrest, detain and question people who break the law within the confines of their own border.
Sorry, but I don't agree. The various Intelligence Agencies have not exactly covered themselves in glory either. Leaving aside the catostrophic intelligence failures of the "heavyweights" like the CIA and FBI which were directly responsible for 9/11, there is also the infamous Saddam's WMD's Dossier. How many British and American soldiers would still be alive if the Spooks had grown a pair and leaked it to the press that claims about WMD's being launched within 45 minutes was a load of sh1te?

Want another example? How about MI5(among others)down-grading the threat level for the UK...about a week before 7/7.

Speaking of which, MI5 has said on several occasions that there are so many potential terrorists they cannot watch them all. They have to concentrate resources on those they deem the most dangerous...and pray noone slips under the radar. As they did on 7/7. And 21/7. And the London and Glasgow Airport attacks...

Orwell's famous quote - "They sleep safely in their beds only because rough men stand read in the night to do violance on those who would harm them" - has never been more true. We need more Spooks not less, wether they come from one of the established Agencies or something new.
 

Glad_its_all_over

ADC
Book Reviewer
I think you should be careful not to conflate the US system - which is fundamentally different - with ours. The various agencies are Federal, which means they do all sorts of big hands small map stuff and frankly don't support local entities such as the big cities too well.

Half the problem they have is that until recently they didn't have a JIC-type system and no-one was in charge of the overall intelligence and security effort. That's changed, but there is still little love or cooperation, I gather, between the upper echelons of the bewildering variety of Federal agencies with intelligence and security responsibilities.

There is very firm legislation in the US which constrains some Federal agencies - notably the DoD and its various offshoots, the NSA and CIA, from operations inside the USA or targeting US citizens. This also complicates matters.

If the NYPD, which is a large, efficient and respected outfit, feels it needs to run CHIS outside the CONUS in order to protect the citizens of that fair city, I'm not going to argue with them.
 
Dontdreamit said:
Werewolf said:
Dontdreamit said:
Does this now mean that the Police Force of every major city in the US has the right to send undercover agents abroad?

The spy industry is about to get a little crowded. DC, LA, Baltimore, Dallas, Detroit, san Fran, Chicago... hell we could even have a mormon chapter from Salt Lake City tapping up Christians....

Am I the only one that cannot see the dangerous precedent being set by this. New York CITY Police Department have no jurisdiction outside of their own borough. They clearly are not working out of embassies so what legal rights do they have if they are captured abroad practising espionage/developing assests?

We invest a great deal of trust, scrutiny and oversight into our national organisations and the incumbent government are responsible for their actions. If a terrorist act occured within NYC would the NYPD shoulder the blame?

This is madness. They are a police force who only reserve the right to arrest, detain and question people who break the law within the confines of their own border.
Sorry, but I don't agree. The various Intelligence Agencies have not exactly covered themselves in glory either. Leaving aside the catostrophic intelligence failures of the "heavyweights" like the CIA and FBI which were directly responsible for 9/11, there is also the infamous Saddam's WMD's Dossier. How many British and American soldiers would still be alive if the Spooks had grown a pair and leaked it to the press that claims about WMD's being launched within 45 minutes was a load of sh1te?

Want another example? How about MI5(among others)down-grading the threat level for the UK...about a week before 7/7.

Speaking of which, MI5 has said on several occasions that there are so many potential terrorists they cannot watch them all. They have to concentrate resources on those they deem the most dangerous...and pray noone slips under the radar. As they did on 7/7. And 21/7. And the London and Glasgow Airport attacks...

Orwell's famous quote - "They sleep safely in their beds only because rough men stand read in the night to do violance on those who would harm them" - has never been more true. We need more Spooks not less, wether they come from one of the established Agencies or something new.
They are all good points werewolf but unfortunately none of them really apply.

The failings of national agencies have no bearing on this matter. As for the 45 min claim..seriously, does that nugget need to worm it's way into every thread on arrse??

But the meat and veg really is your statement that the SS have admitted they cannot monitor all the terrorists within our own border and the situation is prob the same in the US.

But the SS are not responsible for running agents outside the UK and neither are our domestic police force. That is the point of having clandestine agencies who do.

Like I said does this mean every US city police force reserves the right to develop assets abroad? New York was not attacked. The USA was. They are not Kingdom within the State. They are subordinate to it. No terrorists are waging their own personal war against Manhattan.

NYC residents are not being targeted. US Citizens are. THe NYPD are a 'law enforcement' agency not an 'intelligence gathering' agency.

I think that sentence is key. Law Enforcement.
So is the only real problem you have with the NYPD's CT unit that it operates abroad as well as NY itself? Because the FBI has "Foriegn Missions"(?) in several countries. IIRC, there is an FBI Special Agent at the American Embassy in London.

While you are correct that Al Queda attacked America rather than one specific city, New Yorkers can be forgivin for regarding themselves as a special case. They are the only American city to have been attacked by Al Queda TWICE. They are also the financial centre of the USA.

Lets face it: if you ask a non-Septic to name an American city, he's probably going to say New York, Washington or LA. New York will always be one of the juciest targets for AQ.

As for the distinction between Law Enforcement and Intelligance Agencies, it seems that line is becoming ever more blurred. As long as it does'nt compromise operational efficiancy, I do not see this as a bad thing.

One last point: I have no inside knowledge of MI5(apart from passing their surprisingly easy on-line Intelligence Officer entry tests, but that's another story :wink: ). However, I would be very surprised indeed if MI5 did not have assets in countries outside the UK.
 

CRmeansCeilingReached

ADC
Moderator
Dontdreamit said:
They are all good points werewolf but unfortunately none of them really apply.

The failings of national agencies have no bearing on this matter.
i swear that sometimes i think you are a windup. if the national agencies worked, other agencies would not feel the need to create their own, would they? if 9/11 had been prevented, would the NYPD have done this?

As for the 45 min claim..seriously, does that nugget need to worm it's way into every thread on arrse??
perhaps you have just been unable to divine its significance in the discussions?

But the meat and veg really is your statement that the SS have admitted they cannot monitor all the terrorists within our own border and the situation is prob the same in the US.
"the SS"?!?!?!? is that really what you've choosing as your personal abbreviation for MI5? at least call them the Security Service.

But the SS are not responsible for running agents outside the UK and neither are our domestic police force. That is the point of having clandestine agencies who do.
yep, SS it is. :)

Like I said does this mean every US city police force reserves the right to develop assets abroad? New York was not attacked. The USA was. They are not Kingdom within the State. They are subordinate to it. No terrorists are waging their own personal war against Manhattan.
well, new york was attacked, and has been the target of several other attempts as well. personnel may not be "waging their own personal war against manhattan" as you put it, but new york remains an iconic target for islamic fundamentalist terrorists who wish to strike against the USA.

the first WTC attack was over 15 years ago. off the top of my head, there have also been plots against the new york / manhattan tunnels, the subway, JFK airport, the NYSE...

in fact, pretend you are one of that ilk of terrorist right now, determined to strike against the USA or its interests. what locations on the planet would you put above new york, in terms of being the most desirable target? that will be one very short, hotly debated list. the only one i would not dispute as "more desirable" would be the white house. and they've already got a fairly well-established protection agency, complete with extensive intelligence gathering.

NYC residents are not being targeted. US Citizens are. THe NYPD are a 'law enforcement' agency not an 'intelligence gathering' agency.

I think that sentence is key. Law Enforcement.
bear in mind that they are there to "protect and serve", not just "arrest criminals".

one could draw a parallel that the NYPD has merely expanded from a kind of "Protective Security" against terrorism, to the development of "Security Intelligence".

remember, the RUC were "just" a police force, and we spent many years insisting that the IRA were criminals, not political terrorists. the RUC had a fairly extensive intelligence network, which was not confined to its home borders.

personally, provided the information they gather is processed and disseminated appropriately, i have no strong opinion of what they have done. i can think of agencies with a far inferior pedigree.
 
Exactly my point, CR. Given the failures of the CIA, FBI, NSA etc, it should come as no surprise that when they tell the NYPD "Trust us. Just stick to Law Enforcement and leave the Spooky stuff to us." that the NYPD should reply: "Foxtrot Oscar."

Not having a go at the Spooks. As has been pointed out, many of their success are never revealed. They do a very important, difficult and, for some of their personnel, dangerous job. But they are not infallible. And I get a little bit irritated when they claim to be the ONLY ones capable of doing the job. :roll:
 

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