E.U. China and selling them the goods...

seems that with little wars winding down and the insurrectionists running out of credit on their gold cards, the arms brokers are getting antsy over where their next paycheck will come from and they want the West to lift the embargo [like it ever 'really ' worked ] on selling stuff that blows up good to China...now that that nation has become ' enlightened ' and joined the WTO , etc. etc..

for what its worth.. I'd have to say.. leave it alone..

China is growing as an economy, growing as a world player and growing as a military force. It shows signs of wanting to play the stateman, as in the on-again, off-again six-party talks over North Korea. It will play host to the 2008 Olympics and the 2010 World's Fair. It is close to surpassing Japan as the world's second largest trader.

By those lights, it would seem to have come a long way since the repression of 1989, when its tanks and soldiers mowed down student protesters on Tiananmen Square. It might seem reasonable that the E.U., which imposed an arms embargo on China as a consquence of that massacre, is proposing to lift the ban and start supplying major amraments to the country once more. [ to do what? ]It might seem ovcersensitive of the United States and Japan to urge the E.U. to maintain the embargo...

But, there is more to China than its economy. It remains an authoritarian regime that throws its dissidents in prison for 15 years for daring to post essays on the internet in favour of democracy, and kept former leader Zhao Ziyang under house arrest for 15 years [ they must like that number ] for sympathizing with the protesters. The country's leadership might well use any new weapons to repress its own people. Beijing continues to make militant noises about Taiwan, which it continues to claim is a renegade province. It has 600 missiles aimed at the island and not because it fears that Taiwan will invade the mainland.
It would be naive to think that the EU contribution alone would transform China's armed forces. China is perfectly capable of expanding its military might withour embargoed weapons. The country's budget for' defense ' is estimated to be $ 65 billion US, second only to America itself. Beijing commands 2.5 million soldiers [ what a payroll ]. its stock of planes and submarines [ one caught sneaking into Japanese waters recently ] is growing..It is rapidly catching up to the US in ballistic missile and rocket-launch systems. And, its spies are busy ' acquiring knowledge ' regularly..

So, the EU or anyone else for that matter, shouldn't make China's job easier.. Its obvious that the first item in China's ' foregin relations' is an ' adjustment' in the relationship between it and taiwan, any shift in technology, will aggravate that...

If China presented a more benign intention, maybe there wouldn't be aproblem..but, we don't know that..We've all seen what happens when we supply technology/weapons. to an ' autocratic regime '..why should we assist the biggest and the most belligerant?

okay,, rant over.. back to regularly scheduled programming...
Interesting stuff on the Chinese Army. Do they need a slightly lazy Capt?


Book Reviewer
I wouldn't say that there is that much money to be made there anyway. The Chinese have a pretty refined system

- Buy (or otherwise 'obtain') a weapon, bit of electronics, etc.
- Take it apart carefully
- Reverse-engineer it
- Build as many knock-offs as they like, free of royalty payments, research costs, etc.

They've been doing it for years. Only the most gullible would sell stuff to them and expect a decent return, when it comes to defence matters.
who cares if tawian gets screwed we handed hong kong over if we can make a buck out of it lets see tawian get screwed could be a way to settle the euro fighter /jsf /f22 debate :lol: and make a quick buck.
Why not sell arms to Taiwan and China ? But I suspect that wouldnt be pc selling to Taiwan that might make the PRC mad and we wouldnt want that would we ?

Lets apply Alan Smith right now, I'm with you on that..........................just need to convince the Chinese to revalue there currency first!? Oh and bin the WTO, free trade means NO tariffs and requires the free movement of people.....umm still workable? I wish!
Does anybody really think that anything nasty will be done to the chinese given that they 'own' most of the American national debt. One step out of line, the lot goes on the market and arrse drops out of the world economy. And guess which country is virtually self-sufficient and would be least affected?
we could sell them sa80
we could sell them sa80
nimrod awacs the one with the computer designed wings (':evil:')
in fact anything BAE had its fingers on.
except for those quite good plastic bags they made (':twisted:')
Japan used to have a huge chunk of US debt. Chinese currency is already rather over valued and their economy has the potential for a melt down as it is mostly an export oriented economy.

The Chinese have pegged the Yuan to $ therefore as the $ devalues, so does the Yuan, in reality the Yuan needs to be revalued UP 10-20% as Greenspan indicated to congress last week.

FYI- The reserve currency holdings are as follows:

Japan $800bn
China $600bn
Russia+EU(lessUK)+Eastern EU $425bn
HK $120bn

n.b. Korea $100bn,
Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia hold ($50-100bn) each.

Now these numbers are not just $ holding but will include £, Euros and Swiss Francs BUT, less Russia and Europe, these country do have a lot of trade with the US and therefore the majority of their holding will be $.

You are correct there is a risk of a meltdown in China, they need to let the Yuan float and improve corp. gov of their banks. Notwithstanding this, a $ meltdown is just as possible.

I can see GWB concerns about SE Asian and its economic stability! That said selling arms to china really is not going to change the price of fish in the short, mid or long term....so as far as I am concerned sell them to China. It improves our (UK/EU) trade balance with the country it benefits everyone?