E Mails.

#1
In our TA unit, many of the TA soldiers are in an E mail loop where we generally whinge, talk shop and take the piss. It has now come to light, that someone on the list has been forwarding on our group E mails to the management, who are very upset with us. Disciplinary action against some of the authors of certain Emails has been suggested. I am certain that our private correspondence is our matter and that if you are not on our address list then you should not be reading our mail. Does anybody know of the legality of this, and can we face disciplinary action over our own private correspondence:?:

Many thanks,
Fatstab.
 
#2
hi,

bit of a gray area on the email side as it was one of the people in the loop who forwarded it, therefore the managment had a right to read it, also did the email say not for further distribution ? I would say there is a slim chance of success following this route, the general view is that if you send and email with no extra warnings or legal disclamers about who can view the content, then an email is seen as being broadcast to the public domain ie. anyone can see it (this is a professional opinion i know has been used in court). However if you are not officers and not on duty at the time the emails where sent then it is my impression that you where not under military law so what can they do?

oh, and if any of the emails bar the last one went through the army's servers ie a armynet email account then need to find the policies on the use of these accounts


I_G
 
#3
fatstab, I cannot answer your question with any degree of authority, but if you know who forwarded it to the management, perhaps you could all 'educate' him???

Also, I like the sheer honesty in your user name. :lol:



Hope this helps :wink:
 
#4
Why weren't the management included in the e-mail loop in the first place?
 
#5
PartTimePongo said:
Why weren't the management included in the e-mail loop in the first place?
I suspect from the "brown stuff in the air conditioning system" nature of Fatstab's crie de coeur this was because the CC: address for "management" would have been Uselessknobbers@our TAC.org?

Incidentally, is it just me or does anyone else hate the use of the word "management" when we mean chain of COMMAND or LEADER?! :roll:
 
#6
Simple really, if the e-mails were sent by NCO's or bellow then they should know better but if not on TA time then they can't be dealt with by military means. If Officers then they should probably be punished since they are always accountable and if what they said was unsuitable for an officer then so be it, I guess. Additionally if you are punished informally, extra gate duty, stags, poor CR then you probably have to right to put in a complaint... I'm not saying this is the law, I'm no lawyer, nor am I saying it is right. In theory you could throw a one fingured salute up at your CO if you saw him in the street and not a word could be said about it in military terms, though they'll probably get back at you some other way.

Solution for now is to cut the informants out of the loop on the e-mails, and probably anything else as you see fit. Put together an e-mail by way of explanation, but not excuse, to the 'management'. Also find a way to resolve any underlying problems that may be causing negative comms.
 
#7
If the content is defamatory, then because you have written it, rather than spoken it, you could face a libel charge. Provided that the content is factual, then you are safe. Action can only be taken if the content is untrue.

Even if the content is embellished, then because the circulation was intended to be limited, you should be safe. Anyone intending to take further action opens themselves up to spreading the details to a wider audience. Regardless of veracity, this may prove embarassing.

Take a tip. Use e-mails for nice things. If you want to have a go at someone, use the phone (not text) - it's harder to prove.
 
#8
AGAIs apply to all members of the TA at all times. Says so on page 12 of the AGAI instruction.

If what you have said is true,there is no problem - does an OC really want to draw attention to the fact that his men think him a knob, and that the chain in his unit does not work properly.

OC and CSM should get the e-mailers together and have a chat if only to clear the air. The oik who passed them on needs educating, and the rest of you should find a better way of communicating.
 
#9
Similar thing happening regarding posts on Arrse......Watch what you post........(Not aimed at anyone on this topic or anything thats been said,by the way)
 
#10
mushroom said:
AGAIs apply to all members of the TA at all times. Says so on page 12 of the AGAI instruction.
If what you have said is true,there is no problem - does an OC really want to draw attention to the fact that his men think him a knob, and that the chain in his unit does not work properly.

OC and CSM should get the e-mailers together and have a chat if only to clear the air. The oik who passed them on needs educating, and the rest of you should find a better way of communicating.
Correct in theory, incredibly hard to enforce in fact.

AGAI was brought in to formalise military punishments and (to a certain extent) bring the Regulars in line with civvy legislation. But how can you give extra work shifts to "casual labour", or fine people when there's no stable income stream to base the fine against?
 
#11
Coming from a City of London financial institutions background the rule was simple.

If you wouldn't say it in a public forum or to those further up the food chain then you shouldn't send it.

All group mailings, such as this for instance, were consider to have been placed within the public domain and could be acted upon accordingly.

I have friends who have lost jobs because they've posted, contributed to a post, or commented on a post. They were advised by counsel that they had breached clauses within the terms and conditions of employment and that they'd lose if contested. The counter that this infinged their civil liberties and right of confidentiality held no water at all. Think this probably applies to this case.

The key is to post to friends you can trust - type without prejudice all over the form, hide your personal details so you can't be identified and then not bother to send the mail. This is an extremely safe way of communicatiung ;-)
P
 
#12
fatstab said:
In our TA unit, many of the TA soldiers are in an E mail loop where we generally whinge, talk shop and take the urine.
Do they not have a bar in your unit?

msr
 
#13
That's the way we did it in the City and elsewhere.

hearsay is not admissable in evidence and the tone of emails and blogs can be mistaken.

Repair to the bar and vent one's spleen over a pint.

Good advice msr (RC?)

P
 
#14
I suspect they have a bar and from the tenor of Fatstab's messages I can envisage the scene. Clumps of people nervously eyeing one another up and vying for the OC/PSIs attention whilst recceing colleagues backs for a dagger! Other former OCs will recognise the symptoms and know what the cure is. A large dose of honesty followed by a big dollop of collective training to build TEAM!

Sadly this requires the OC to be a big man and take it on the chin...if he is a bit of a puller, then this may not happen. For every Major Bligh TD, there needs to be a young and charismatic Capt. F.Christian - this is not always the case!!
 
#15
I dont know about anyone else but i realy want to know what was said :), anyway AGAI is a crap for a situation like this just dont go in they cannot force you to work beyond what your signed in for as your not insured, and if your like me you get dickked with all the shite jobs anyway so they carnt realy give you extra duties. Fines could only come out of your pay at lest for me as i have no funds that they know about:). also i suspect if your unit is like mine then most of the soldiers in the unit will support you over the command and you could all start not turning up (although this hasnt been tried at my unit we're all one big happy family) i could see weekends being a bit carp with only the managment amd the informer 'free' to turn up.

I_G
 
#16
fatstab said:
In our TA unit, many of the TA soldiers are in an E mail loop where we generally whinge, talk shop and take the urine. It has now come to light, that someone on the list has been forwarding on our group E mails to the management, who are very upset with us. Disciplinary action against some of the authors of certain Emails has been suggested. I am certain that our private correspondence is our matter and that if you are not on our address list then you should not be reading our mail. Does anybody know of the legality of this, and can we face disciplinary action over our own private correspondence:?:

Many thanks,
Fatstab.
Golden rule of E Mail is "unless you are prepared to say a statement to an individuals face, do not publish it".

"If a person commits libel (false and unprivileged publication or assertion of a fact, which exposes any person to hatred, contempt, ridicule, or which causes him/her to be shunned or avoided, or which has a tendency to injure him/her in his/her trade or occupation) against you through e-mail or other on-line activities, the publisher, and any re-publisher, of the offensive statement can be held accountable for damages".

I have seen many articles regarding disciplinary/legal action being taken against individuals. It has been placed on the "public domain", and without knowing the full facts, you will be hard pressed to deny any responsibility. Eating some humble pie may have to occur. Good Luck.
 
#17
How does that affect comments made on Arrse. Hypothetically, if one and a manager who was, in your own opinion, ineffectual or ineffective, and made statements to that fact on Arrse, no matter how minor, where would one stand.

I have noted a number of comments in the past and have, on the odd occasion, made the odd remark about an individual, of junior, the same and senior rank.
 
#18
Padre said:
Coming from a City of London financial institutions background the rule was simple.

If you wouldn't say it in a public forum or to those further up the food chain then you shouldn't send it.

All group mailings, such as this for instance, were consider to have been placed within the public domain and could be acted upon accordingly.

I have friends who have lost jobs because they've posted, contributed to a post, or commented on a post. They were advised by counsel that they had breached clauses within the terms and conditions of employment and that they'd lose if contested. The counter that this infinged their civil liberties and right of confidentiality held no water at all. Think this probably applies to this case.

The key is to post to friends you can trust - type without prejudice all over the form, hide your personal details so you can't be identified and then not bother to send the mail. This is an extremely safe way of communicatiung ;-)
P
In an employment law context I agree, though I do not beleive that just putting without prejudice on something makes it inadmissable. The issue with these individuals is they would be required to face a proper process before action under AGAI as to do anything else woud leave the employer in breach of the same legislation (ERA 2003 I believe) and case law which require a proper investigation, the individuals have to to be given a proper opportinuty to explain themselves BEFORE a decison on any disciplinary sanction is made plus have the right to appeal. I have not looked at AGAI in detail but guess it fulfills these criteria but the issue tends to be where bits of the process are by passed or are a sham.

Suspect it really depends if the relevant chain of command wish to go through the process and the effect this may have on cohesion and motivation.
 
#19
Sorry sack - that was the beginning of a progression that was supposed to show the only safe way to post was not too!

The comments made on ARRSE and elsewhere need to be done so the person is not readily identfied Bobos. This is not safe even then of course.

Bottom line - if you can't do the time don't send the mail!

P
 
#20
Oh for pity's sake. If you have a grievance, take it up with the chain of command. It is the other reason it is there actually, yes it isn't just there to muck you about. You'll get it off your chest and the outcome will probably benefit everybody. Unless you are victimised - in which case that is why redress exists!

I generally find, when I'm not posting questionable threads about the mentally defective or dodgy sexual practices or taking the michael out of the infantry, that if I stick to the principles of leadership, I do okay. CKIWI. Remember that? As Jim Telfer said to the Lions in 1997 - stay big! Be courageous, show initiative, demonstrate willpower, be knowledgeable and learn and finally have integrity. Better than being a bunch of "bitches" sniggering, albeit virtually, behind the electronic bikesheds!

If your leadwers fail to respond appropriately, it will all come crashing down around their ears and they will be replaced - probably by something even more unfathomable as a head shed. That is 99% unlikely to happen, so go on Fatstab. don't wait to be sniped when the flush you from cover - two up, bags of smoke and hey-diddle-diddle straight up the middle...
 
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