E&E for CVR(t) crews?

#1
my recruiting sergeant was telling me about his time as a cvr(t) instructer and mentioned that the Escape and evasion phase was really hard as you had to TAB with your kit plus ammo and radios from the CVR(t) back to the tank park once your CVR(t) had been "destroyed"

anyone know if there is such a thing as E&E for CVR(t) crews and if so do you really have to take the CVR(t) ammo and radios?
 

the_boy_syrup

LE
Book Reviewer
#2
I don't know about E & E but you will have to learn to rescue your mates out from inside it thats a hard days work in itself manouvering them round inside and up and out

I know in Basra in 04 we always had plans to make sure the Radios and other kit was detroyed if we had to bail out
At the veryy least a well aimed burst into the kit or a Grenade into whichever wagon before legging it

We never had to though
 
#3
FR_Trooper said:
my recruiting sergeant was telling me about his time as a cvr(t) instructer and mentioned that the Escape and evasion phase was really hard as you had to TAB with your kit plus ammo and radios from the CVR(t) back to the tank park once your CVR(t) had been "destroyed"

anyone know if there is such a thing as E&E for CVR(t) crews and if so do you really have to take the CVR(t) ammo and radios?
You don't need Escape and Evasion when you have Camouflage and Concealment :)
 
#4
FR_Trooper said:
my recruiting sergeant was telling me about his time as a cvr(t) instructer and mentioned that the Escape and evasion phase was really hard as you had to TAB with your kit plus ammo and radios from the CVR(t) back to the tank park once your CVR(t) had been "destroyed"

anyone know if there is such a thing as E&E for CVR(t) crews and if so do you really have to take the CVR(t) ammo and radios?
1x30mm round .9kg x 165 = 148kgs
3000rds 7.62mm
I dont think you are going to carry that lot very far
 
#5
tropper66 said:
1x30mm round .9kg x 165 = 148kgs
3000rds 7.62mm
I dont think you are going to carry that lot very far
thats why im asking, i know for a fact i couldnt even get that on my back never mind tabbing across salisbury plain with it
 
#6
FR_Trooper said:
my recruiting sergeant was telling me about his time as a cvr(t) instructer and mentioned that the Escape and evasion phase was really hard as you had to TAB with your kit plus ammo and radios from the CVR(t) back to the tank park once your CVR(t) had been "destroyed"

anyone know if there is such a thing as E&E for CVR(t) crews and if so do you really have to take the CVR(t) ammo and radios?
probably man packs and gpmg
 
#8
Are you sure your not getting instructor confused with commander?

E&E is not part of any formal CVRT crew training though it might be incorporated informally in a unit exercise and it may be an element of a recce commanders course. I've certainly never done it on either CR2 or CVRT. Carrying the radios and gimpy is somewhat plausible but there is no way you would be carrying 30mm rounds with you and most certainly not live rounds. There is no such thing as a CVRT instructor either, it's either D&M or gunnery.

Either way if your coming in as trooper you won't be doing anything like that let me assure you. You will do a CVRT course at Bovington which does not incorporate anything like that.
 
#10
This would be part of an exercise probably run at unit level. It sounds like just the sort of training that Commanding Officers or Squadron Leaders might wish to include in their training. Not least because it will take up fewer track miles.

In all seriousness this sort of thing is useful training, particularly in todays environment. There is a rumour going round at the moment (don't know how reliable) that crew extraction from AFVs under fire and vehicle recovery under fire was going to be included at some time during in hybrid foundation training. It does make sense and if its true should much better prepare RAC crews incase their vehicles are shot out from under them.
 
#11
There was prior to 2003 an effort by DRAC to get FR Regts to send their guys on E&E/ SERE courses. We had a few blokes go on both the grown-up Army Combat Survival Instructors course and a RN run SERE course. Apart from presenting a great opportunity to diet, get very cold and be shouted at by some angry interrogators there, not surprisingly, was not a huge rush to get on the courses!
 
#12
brave-coward said:
This would be part of an exercise probably run at unit level. It sounds like just the sort of training that Commanding Officers or Squadron Leaders might wish to include in their training. Not least because it will take up fewer track miles.

In all seriousness this sort of thing is useful training, particularly in todays environment. There is a rumour going round at the moment (don't know how reliable) that crew extraction from AFVs under fire and vehicle recovery under fire was going to be included at some time during in hybrid foundation training. It does make sense and if its true should much better prepare RAC crews incase their vehicles are shot out from under them.
What exactly is "in hybrid training" and all this "under fire" malarky? The drills for crew extraction and troop level recovery do not differ in any aspect regardless of whether you are under fire or not except you might be tempted to move a darn site quicker. As these drills are taught at basic gunnery/driver level what is the point of teaching them again?
 
#13
soldier.a said:
What exactly is "in hybrid training" and all this "under fire" malarky? The drills for crew extraction and troop level recovery do not differ in any aspect regardless of whether you are under fire or not except you might be tempted to move a darn site quicker. As these drills are taught at basic gunnery/driver level what is the point of teaching them again?
Move out of the dark ages fella! Hybrid Foundation Training (HFT) is what has replaced Adaptive Foundation Training, i.e. all your CT level training that Tps, Sqns and BGs, etc. do prior to Mission Specific Training (MST or what was Pre-Deployment Training (PDT) in old money).

Although the techniques of how to extract crew members form AFVs and how to do Tp level recovery are taught during phase 2 training, crews don't normally get to practice them in a tactical setting until they do it for real on ops. I did not say that they would be re-taught, just that they would be included in HFT.

From what I understand, we are likely to see crews doing live firing exercises (either on the ranges in the UK or Germany or may be at BATUS or wherever), where crews conduct these drills in a tactical setting as part of a live fire shoot while engaging targetry with their rifles and mounted weapon systems. Clearly the "under-fire" piece I took to be exercise play, unless we now have cardboard targets that shoot back!

I suspect that this means that there is going to be a lot more dismounted field firing for RAC Sqns, as I suspect (based on my albeit limited dealings with the SASC) that there is a pretty hefty dismounted training progression requirement before you can do reletively complicated things like this.

The chat I heard sounded quite good, albeit lacking in a bit of detail. Given the experiences of vehicle recovery under fire in Iraq and Afghanistan, training for it certainly seems to make sense.
 

AlienFTM

MIA
Book Reviewer
#14
I did my 15/19H Junior NCOs Cadre Course in August - September 1978. We were less than politely told by the instructors that we were getting off lightly because in their day exercise Rat Race (the E&E phase of the Cadre Course) involved a "crew" carrying with them an SR C42 plus PSU, ATU, rods, harness and two vehicle batteries to power it.

We were given an A41 manpack.

Now I have to say that, if the instructors were not in fact bullsh!tting us as I naturally assumed, lugging that C42 CES across all those miles would have been a nightmare. I wasn't impressed at being volunteered by the two other "crew" to carry the A41, which made a Clansman PRC351 look like a mobile phone in comparison, but compared with lugging a C42 station between the three of us, it was child's play.

On www.hmvf.co.uk I recently read a post by someone suggesting that C42 was man-portable and laughed.

However, this is now twice. To quote Ian Fleming (Goldfinger) quoting Confucius, "Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times it's enemy action."
 
#16
AlienFTM said:
I did my 15/19H Junior NCOs Cadre Course in August - September 1978. We were less than politely told by the instructors that we were getting off lightly because in their day exercise Rat Race (the E&E phase of the Cadre Course) involved a "crew" carrying with them an SR C42 plus PSU, ATU, rods, harness and two vehicle batteries to power it.

We were given an A41 manpack.

Now I have to say that, if the instructors were not in fact bullsh!tting us as I naturally assumed, lugging that C42 CES across all those miles would have been a nightmare. I wasn't impressed at being volunteered by the two other "crew" to carry the A41, which made a Clansman PRC351 look like a mobile phone in comparison, but compared with lugging a C42 station between the three of us, it was child's play.

On www.hmvf.co.uk I recently read a post by someone suggesting that C42 was man-portable and laughed.

However, this is now twice. To quote Ian Fleming (Goldfinger) quoting Confucius, "Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times it's enemy action."
It used to screw me carrying that lot from the radio store to the tank park, the only way you could man pack a C13/42/45 was with a team of porters or better still mules
 
#17
tropper66 said:
AlienFTM said:
I did my 15/19H Junior NCOs Cadre Course in August - September 1978. We were less than politely told by the instructors that we were getting off lightly because in their day exercise Rat Race (the E&E phase of the Cadre Course) involved a "crew" carrying with them an SR C42 plus PSU, ATU, rods, harness and two vehicle batteries to power it.

We were given an A41 manpack.

Now I have to say that, if the instructors were not in fact bullsh!tting us as I naturally assumed, lugging that C42 CES across all those miles would have been a nightmare. I wasn't impressed at being volunteered by the two other "crew" to carry the A41, which made a Clansman PRC351 look like a mobile phone in comparison, but compared with lugging a C42 station between the three of us, it was child's play.

On www.hmvf.co.uk I recently read a post by someone suggesting that C42 was man-portable and laughed.

However, this is now twice. To quote Ian Fleming (Goldfinger) quoting Confucius, "Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times it's enemy action."
It used to screw me carrying that lot from the radio store to the tank park, the only way you could man pack a C13/42/45 was with a team of porters or better still mules
Confusion of terms and has been mentioned before.
The C13/42/45 et al, were "man portable" not "man packable" and even then over limited distance.
Anyone who tried to turn portable into packable was, by definition, a cnut.
 

AlienFTM

MIA
Book Reviewer
#18
PE4rocks said:
Confusion of terms and has been mentioned before.
The C13/42/45 et al, were "man portable" not "man packable" and even then over limited distance.
Anyone who tried to turn portable into packable was, by definition, a cnut.
Or DS on a cadre course.
 
#19
When we were in Bosnia, some of us did our phase 2 sigs, for a punishment (Thanks to the LCoH who's now been an SCM in Afghanistan!) we ran about 200m round the camp with 2 VRC353 radios. You felt like your arms were going to drop off, you would get more than half a bloody mile carrying 10% of the kit your wagon carries! That's why you have it - to carry kit as well as other functions!
 
#20
FR_Trooper said:
my recruiting sergeant was telling me about his time as a cvr(t) instructer and mentioned that the Escape and evasion phase was really hard as you had to TAB with your kit plus ammo and radios from the CVR(t) back to the tank park once your CVR(t) had been "destroyed"

anyone know if there is such a thing as E&E for CVR(t) crews and if so do you really have to take the CVR(t) ammo and radios?
I think he may be pulling your plonker, or most likely this EnE "phase" was an instructors idea to fill in some stand around time on the tank park. If this was an attempt to make DnM more current then you wouldn't be doing it on CVR(T) because the furthest forward FR elements ie BRF and BG Recce Troop, and therefore those most needing any E&E training, are on Jackal or another wheeled vehicles, as CVR(T) won't get to those hard to reach, high NMC IED areas out there. Besides, usually when your wagon is Mkill, you wouldn't bother with all the 30mm as the wagon will get denied anyway.
 

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